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NEWS ROUNDUP: Clare Dyer Parents claiming a link between MMR vaccine and autism lose final appeal for legal aid BMJ 2004; 329: 939 [Full text]

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"HARDLY AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR ACCESS TO JUSTICE" Mr Justice Keith MMR Case Judge

Clifford G. Miller   (22 October 2004)

Parents claiming a link between MMR vaccine and autism lose final appeal for legal aid

Angus H Files   (22 October 2004)

What is the conflict of interest?

Adrian K Midgley   (22 October 2004)

Why are those with autism denied justice?

Carol Johnston   (23 October 2004)

LSC GUARANTEES MMR/AUTISM ISSUE IS HERE TO STAY

Clifford G. Miller   (23 October 2004)

The Tip of the Iceberg

Joan C. Campbell   (23 October 2004)

MMR legal case - a total disaster

A Peter Fletcher, none   (24 October 2004)

mmr appeal refusal

Michael L Boult   (24 October 2004)

Re: Parents claiming a link between MMR vaccine and autism lose final appeal for legal aid

Dr John Rumbold   (24 October 2004)

Re: LSC GUARANTEES MMR/AUTISM ISSUE IS HERE TO STAY

Dr John Rumbold   (24 October 2004)

Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?

John P Heptonstall   (24 October 2004)

Time for parents to move on

Camille Clark   (24 October 2004)

Re: Conflicts of interests

Graeme Johnston   (24 October 2004)

Re: Time for parents to move on

Carol Johnston   (25 October 2004)

Ad hominem attacks

John Stone   (25 October 2004)

Re: Time for parents to move on

Janette Robb   (25 October 2004)

Re: Time for parents to move on

John P Heptonstall   (25 October 2004)

Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?

Graeme Johnston   (25 October 2004)

Re: Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?

Jan M Perkins   (26 October 2004)

Re: Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?

Carol Johnston   (26 October 2004)

Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?

John Stone   (26 October 2004)

A plea concerning the use of the term "autism"

A Peter Fletcher   (26 October 2004)

Re: Re: Time for parents to move on

Camille Clark   (26 October 2004)

Re: Camille Clark

John Stone   (28 October 2004)

Vested Interest

Dr John Rumbold   (28 October 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on

Carol Johnston   (28 October 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on

Janette Robb   (28 October 2004)

Unlocking the secrets of Beethoven's hair

John Stone   (28 October 2004)

A plea concerning the use of the term "Autism"

Joan C. Campbell   (28 October 2004)

Re: Vested Interest

John Stone   (29 October 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on

Camille Clark   (29 October 2004)

Re: Re: Vested Interest

Dr John Rumbold   (30 October 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Vested Interest

John P Heptonstall   (31 October 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on

Saadedine Tebbal   (31 October 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on

John T. Neisworth   (1 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on

Camille Clark   (1 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Vested Interest

Dr John Rumbold   (1 November 2004)

Re: Re: Time for parents to move on

Dr John Rumbold   (1 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Vested Interest

John P Heptonstall   (2 November 2004)

Re: a diversion on eye witness reliability

Adrian K Midgley   (3 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on

Carol Johnston   (3 November 2004)

Science as the only evidence!

Carol Johnston   (4 November 2004)

Single vaccines

Dr John Rumbold   (4 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on

Saadedine Tebbal   (4 November 2004)

Re: Re: a diversion on eye witness reliability

John P Heptonstall   (4 November 2004)

Re: Science as the only evidence!

Dr John Rumbold   (4 November 2004)

Re: Single vaccines

Peter Morrell   (4 November 2004)

tool-users

Adrian k Midgley   (4 November 2004)

Re: Re: Single vaccines

Dr John Rumbold   (5 November 2004)

Re: Re: Single vaccines

Peter J Flegg   (5 November 2004)

Re: Re: Science as the only evidence!

Saadedine Tebbal   (6 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines

Saadedine Tebbal   (6 November 2004)

Great medical poisoners

Peter Morrell   (6 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines

Dr John Rumbold   (6 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines

Saadedine Tebbal   (8 November 2004)

ASD - AN IATROGENIC DISORDER

Michael D Innis   (8 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines

Peter J Flegg   (9 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines

Graeme Johnston   (9 November 2004)

Re: ASD - AN IATROGENIC DISORDER

John Stone   (9 November 2004)

Running scared

Mark Struthers   (10 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines

Saadedine Tebbal   (10 November 2004)

Observer report: "MMR Parents win legal victory"

John Stone   (26 December 2004)

"HARDLY AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR ACCESS TO JUSTICE" Mr Justice Keith MMR Case Judge 22 October 2004
Clifford G. Miller, Lawyer, graduate physicist, former examining university lecturer in law Beckenham Kent England BR3 3LA Send response to journal: Re: "HARDLY AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR ACCESS TO JUSTICE" Mr Justice Keith MMR Case Judge	Dear Sir "HARDLY AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR ACCESS TO JUSTICE" Mr Justice Keith MMR Case Judge Bearing in mind the public importance, the LSC has provided scant information to the public of the grounds of the latest decision to remove legal aid. The only information on the LSC's website is its own 211 word press release (MMR Appeals 15 October 2004). This is less than half the length of this BMJ news item 'Parents claiming a link between MMR vaccine and autism lose final appeal for legal aid' (1) reporting the decision. In such a complex case, it is odd to expect the parents to be able to appeal to 'three expert solicitors and eminent Queen's Counsel' without the aid of some expert assistance themselves. At the least, the decision itself should have been published and fuller details provided of the circumstances of the decision. It would be instructive to know if any of the children were legally represented in the appeals before the FRC or whether any were granted funding for legal representation in the original appeals against the withdrawal of funding and, if so, to what extent. In this context it is instructive to note the comments of the learned judge in the case (2) regarding the manner in which the legal aid funding has been administered:- "There is one final thing I want to say. The orderly transfer of this litigation from public to private funding has been significantly hampered by the lack of advice which the claimants' parents undoubtedly need if they are to make informed decisions about their future participation in this litigation. Although it is not for me to question the decision of the Commission to withdraw funding for the litigation to continue, it would have made everyone's task easier if funding had been available to enable advice to be given to ensure that the litigation was brought to an orderly conclusion for the many claimants who have decided that enough is enough. I do not know what funding, if any, was made available for that purpose. But if none was made available, I endorse Mr Ullstein's comment that it is hardly an advertisement for access to justice that such advice as the claimants' parents have received has had to be given on a piecemeal and wholly unremunerated basis." The original LSC decision to remove funding was stated publicly by the Legal Services Commission to be that:- "The commission said that medical research had not proved a conclusive link between the MMR vaccine and autism." 'Conclusive' in scientific terms is the wrong standard of proof (3). The burden of proof in civil cases is to prove a case on a balance of probability. It is a fundamental error of law to apply the wrong standard of proof. What we do know is that the primary evidence of the damage has not been taken into account in this case, being the case histories of the children, backed by the parental evidence, medical notes and video and photographic evidence before and after the administration of the MMR. Example case histories can be found in Hansard (4, 5), the official record of proceedings in the English Parliament and that the science that is proof lies in standard pharmacology CDR (challenge-dechallenge-rechallenge) and CD (challenge-dechallenge) as I explained here (6, 7, 8) and in the temporal associations with the onset of symptons and the other facts and circumstances. As leading Counsel for the children stated in open court on 6th October last year (9):- "Each of us is surprised to find that the funding review committee has relied upon reasons which to our knowledge were neither raised nor addressed during the hearing, and each of us holds the view that the decision of the FRC is flawed for that reason and upon the basis of the material put before it." Regrettably, however, the only available challenge, the judicial review of the original LSC decision to remove funding, cannot be based on the merits of the children's case but on whether the LSC behaved wholly unreasonably in coming to that decision. It does not address whether the decision itself was in itself the wrong one but whether the public law function was seen to be exercised lawfully. In other words, the LSC can come to the wrong decision, provided they did not do so unlawfully. This includes acting wholly unreasonably, illegally, outside their powers, in error of law, irrationally, for an improper purpose, in bad faith, without taking account of material considerations, in abuse of power or legitimate expectations, disproportionately, procedurally improperly, in a biased manner, failing to afford a fair hearing. The LSC can act unreasonably in coming to their decision as long as they did not act so unreasonably that no reasonable tribunal would have come to that particular decision. Also regrettably, we will also not know the basis upon which the judicial review was decided because the substantive judgement has not been made public. Accordingly, the public will not know whether a challenge was made on the basis the wrong standard of proof was applied and the outcome of that challenge. 1) Parents claiming a link between MMR vaccine and autism lose final appeal for legal aid BMJ 2004;329:939 (23 October), doi:10.1136/bmj.329.7472.939 2) Mr Justice Keith: MMR/MR Approved Judgment 30 July 2004 : hearing 26/27 July 2004, Neutral Citation Number: [2004] EWHC 1899 (QB) Case No: S/01/0173 3) See my treatment of this point in UNRELIABILITY OF SCIENTIFIC PAPERS AS EVIDENCE, 11 Mar 2004 4) Health Select Committee Sixth Report 1998/99 - David Thrower’s Memorandum Appendix I — Degeneration of Oliver Thrower Into Autism — Case History 5) Hansard 19th November 2003 - Norman Baker MP - Debate regarding MMR and the effects on Michael and Terry Thomas, two of the four sons of Isabella Thomas 6) MMR KIDS - LIVING SCIENTIFIC PROOF MMR CAUSES AUTISM 23 Jul 2004 7) MMR KIDS - LIVING SCIENTIFIC PROOF MMR CAUSES AUTISM 25 Jul 2004 8) YOUR OWN DO-IT-YOURSELF KIT - RELIABLE PROOF MMR CAUSES AUTISM 26 Jul 2004 9) PAUL SAYERS and others Claimants v SMITH KLINE BEECHAM PLC and others 1998 No. 1267 & others, QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION 2003 EWHC 2906 (QB), Monday 6th October 2003 Competing interests: Close relative with life threatening food allergy.
Parents claiming a link between MMR vaccine and autism lose final appeal for legal aid 22 October 2004
Angus H Files, carer PA34 4UT Send response to journal: Re: Parents claiming a link between MMR vaccine and autism lose final appeal for legal aid	Dear Sirs Since you published your article there are now over 100 families that are applying to have legal aid reinstated.Everybody I have spoken to welcomes the decision by the LSC as this will keep avenues of investgation open which,can only help the families that never had legal aid reinstated and who, find themselves going forward to the European Courts (real democracy).The only ones that are sad seem to be the pharma companies,and lawyers representing them, as they thought that this hearing at the LSC was the end.We fight on ANGUS FILES parent of claimant refused legal aid funding and justice in this country. Competing interests: None declared
What is the conflict of interest? 22 October 2004
Adrian K Midgley, GP Exeter EX1 2QS Send response to journal: Re: What is the conflict of interest?	The only thing that I don't understand or cannot dismiss instantly in the polemic presented as a response above is this:- "Competing interests: Close relative with life threatening food allergy." Is this a claim that mixed vaccines cause food allergy? Competing interests: None declared
Why are those with autism denied justice? 23 October 2004
Carol Johnston, Carer Carshalton, Surrey Send response to journal: Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?	I am disgusted by the LSCs decision to refuse funding for the children who became autistic and developed bowel disease following vaccination with MMR. Because these children have autism they are not given a chance for a fair hearing? What about the children who have autism and epilepsy? Because of their autism they dont get justice. Clare Dodgson's words expressing sympathy for the parents and their children but defending the LSC in saying they have an obligation to fund only cases which have reasonable prospects of success struck me as ironic. This decision discriminates against individauls who have autism and/or IBD - the message to a anyone with autism is "you do not have the same rights as everyone else!" Yet a sample of other cases the LSC deemed worthy of legal aid were: A Lithuanian family of asylum seekers are awarded £100,000 in legal aid after claiming a three-bedroom maisonette they have been given is too small. The family were offered another home which they refused because the bathroom was too small. Brendan Fearon, awarded £5,000 to sue Tony Martin for injuries sustained while burgling the farmer's Norfolk home. Fearon, who claims he was hurt in the burglary during which 16-yearold Fred Barras was shot by Martin, later dropped his case in 2003 after he is seen walking and cycling. Former Guinness chairman Ernest Saunders, claimed to be penniless was awarded legal aid in 1990 for charges of conspiracy/false accounting and theft. Saunders was given a 5 year jail term after the 113-day trial which cost £25 million. He did not pay any costs. A Jamaican illegal immigrant convicted of dealing crack cocaine is granted legal aid in 2002 to fight deportation because she has Aids. Althea Matthan says treatment in Jamaica is inadequate. Danny Gayle, a prisoner is granted legal aid to sue the Home Secretary in 1999 because he couldn't get a second helping of rhubarb crumble in a jail canteen. Gayle was punished for hurling his dessert onto the counter. Two Kosovans shot and wounded by British peacekeeping troops claimed legal aid to sue the MoD for £100,000. After the incident Mohamet Bici was flown to Britain for surgery to reconstruct his jaw and both he and his cousin Skender were given council homes in Leeds. A girl of 16 from Cleveland is granted £1,000 legal aid in 1996 to take her parents to court. They banned her from seeing her younger brother, sister and dog after she went to live with her boyfriend. Chitralekha Mehta, daughter of the founder of the Patak's spice business empire, is revealed to be receiving legal aid to bring a High Court case claiming she and her sister were cheated out of shares. Apparently the court was told, 'she is a woman of considerable wealth in India'. John Duggan, a convincted murderer, was granted legal aid in 2002 to sue the prison service because his savings were bringing no interest. Jailed in 1984 for battering his girlfriend to death with a scaffolding pole - Duggan complained against the zero-interest prison account meant to pay for phonecards, toiletries and cigarettes. Elizabeth Fagan is awarded £250,000 in 2001 to sue over the 'trauma' of witnessing a fatal road accident. Mrs Fagan from Tooting, South London, took action against the driver of a vehicle who crashed into a police motorcyclist, killing him - leaving her 'mentally scarred and unable to work'. In 2000, 9 armed Afghan hijackers run up legal bills of £ 4.3 million claiming asylum in Britain after threatening to blow up a passenger jet. The gang forced the aircraft to fly at gunpoint from Afghanistan to Stansted airport where they demanded asylum. Kenneth Noye, the M25 killer was jailed for life at the Old Bailey for the murder of Stephen Cameron, was given £250,000 in legal aid in 2000. Noye has a property empire in Cyprus and Tenerife, and had access to hundreds of thousands of pounds in cash while hiding from British police in Spain. A woman who left her wealthy banker husband to marry Princess Diana's lawyer is given legal aid for her divorce case in 1998. Dina Rabinovitch left her husband for Anthony Julius who was estimated to be earning £300,000 a year from his legal career. Two unemployed men are awarded £10,000 in 1996 to fight a bypass in Bristol. Andrew Nicholson and Barry McNeeney, lived eight miles away, they complained that the road would divert a cycle route. The Commons Select Committee on Constitutional Affairs warned of excessive spending on legal aid for asylum seekers was swallowing up resources that could be spent elsewhere. In England, the Legal Services Commission spent £204m on advice on immigration in 2003-2004. The message seems to be, that just about anyone can get Justice - unless, of course, you happen to have autism! I am not a litigant in the current MMR but I fully support those parents, whose children developed autism and IBD following MMR. These autistic kids have as much right as anyone else to justice! Competing interests: 2 children who developed ASDs following MMR.
LSC GUARANTEES MMR/AUTISM ISSUE IS HERE TO STAY 23 October 2004
Clifford G. Miller, Lawyer, graduate physicist, former university examining lecturer in law Beckenham, Kent, England BR3 3LA Send response to journal: Re: LSC GUARANTEES MMR/AUTISM ISSUE IS HERE TO STAY	Dear Sir, ONE OF MEDICINE'S FINEST STRIKES AGAIN I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to the contribution of Adrian K Midgley, GP Exeter EX1 2QS: What is the conflict of interest? 22 October 2004. It clearly seems to irritate Dr Midgley that the withdrawal of legal aid had nothing to do with the merits of the childrens' claims, such that the MMR/autism issue is now here to stay. It seem legal aid was withdrawn only because of the current state of medical 'science' and even though the children may be able to prove their cases tomorrow or the next day to the high scientific standard of proof (which it also seems might be being inappropriately applied in these civil proceedings instead of the proper 'balance of probability' standard). So, what does the fine Doctor Midgeley have to say about the withdrawal of legal aid? This is an extremely serious issue, warranting a tad more respect for these seriously ill children. Or is that of no concern to Dr Midgley? Perhaps he might be so kind as to tell us. It would also seem that Dr Midgley contributes nothing to the issue (the withdrawal of legal aid for these children). Perhaps the editor would please be so kind as to explain the purpose of the inclusion of this item? There are sixty articles and papers referring to food allergy in the BMJ. Perhaps the good Doctor is suffering from scientific navigational disorder such that we might see a contribution or two from him in response to one or more of those other articles which seem more pertinent to his query? Further, as a kindness, I trust the following might be of general assistance for the future. It would seem the term polemic is being applied by the good Doctor Midgeley as a descriptive noun to the text in general:- polemic - noun a piece of writing or a speech in which a person strongly attacks or defends a particular opinion, person, idea or set of beliefs:- "She has published a fierce anti-war polemic." po·lem·ic n. A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine. Of or relating to a controversy, argument, or refutation. polemic Of or pertaining to controversy; maintaining, or involving, controversy; controversial; disputative; as, a polemic discourse or essay; polemic theology. Competing interests: Close relative with life threatening food allergy.
The Tip of the Iceberg 23 October 2004
Joan C. Campbell, carer HOME G64 3EU Send response to journal: Re: The Tip of the Iceberg	THE LEGAL SERVICES COMMISSION TOOK AWAY LEGAL AID FROM 1,000 FAMILIES AND THE FAMILIES WHO APPEALED THIS DECISION WERE WHITTLED DOWN TO 37 FAMILIES, 11 CHILDREN WERE GIVEN THEIR LEGAL AID BACK AND 26 CHILDREN’S LEGAL AID WAS DISMISSED. JACK WAS ONE OF THE 26. THE REASON BEING THAT THEY ALL HAD A DIAGNOSIS OF AUTISM. IT DIDN’T MATTER THAT THEY HAD OTHER DIFFICULTIES FOR EXAMPLE DEAFNESS, ARTHRITIS, EPELIPSY ETC, THE FACT THAT THEY HAD AUTISM STOPPED THEM FROM GETTING JUSTICE. TOO MUCH IS AT STAKE TO LET THIS GO. THE FAMILIES WHO ARE WILLING TO TAKE THIS FURTHER ARE JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG AND I INTEND TO EXPOSE THE WHOLE OF THE ICEBERG TO EUROPE WE GO. Competing interests: Mother and Litigation friend to vaccine damaged son
MMR legal case - a total disaster 24 October 2004
A Peter Fletcher, semiretired medic/scientist/exDHSS Halstead Essex CO92RU, none Send response to journal: Re: MMR legal case - a total disaster	I was accepted as an expert on behalf of the claimants as I had previously been The Medical Assessor to the Committee on Safety of Medicines and had extensive experience in the field of adverse reactions to medicinal products. Clifford Miller has hit the nail on the head - I fully back all he has said. In his second paragraph he questions whether the parents at the appeal heard by the Funding Review Committee (FRC) 5-7 October were aided by an expert. The answer is yes. I volunteered to represent two sets of parents with seriously damaged children. I presented a 5 page report supporting the clinical evidence (not laboratory findings) from parents and other carers which convincingly showed on a balance of probabilities that a triple vaccine (MMR) was causally related to the damage suffered by the children. I also gave a verbal presentation to the QC and three lawyers lasting approximately 15 minutes after which I answered their questions. No mention of either report or presentation was made in the FRC decision. However they did decide that inflammatory bowel disease was not eligible for legal aid although Crohn's disease was. I did wonder if anyone had informed them that Crohn's disease was an inflammatory bowel condition which they ignored in the same way. Competing interests: Expert witness for claimants
mmr appeal refusal 24 October 2004
Michael L Boult, writer home bh243dz Send response to journal: Re: mmr appeal refusal	I am very disappointed and annoyed to say the least to recieve an unsigned legal aid appeal refusal by eminent qc and three solicitors.My wife and I have for years fought for justice and truth for our daughter emily who like many if not all of the claimants in this case had a beautiful happy child prior to the mmr vaccine.We are quite lucky as we have brought her back to us in many ways, she is happy loving talks again loves her animals loves music,although the damage is still there it proves our case even more, because autism is sadly a condition that rarely improves as much as emilys case.we have also been threatened by defendants sols but in our case to no avail!we have nothing to lose, we have already lost our daughters years which have caused enough tears.In light of recent revalations concerning safety of drugs ie: Vioxx,seroxat flu vaccines I think the legal aid board and funding review committee should indeed be subject to a Judicial Review!on to europe we go.michael and dee and emily of course. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Parents claiming a link between MMR vaccine and autism lose final appeal for legal aid 24 October 2004
Dr John Rumbold, n/a West Midlands Send response to journal: Re: Re: Parents claiming a link between MMR vaccine and autism lose final appeal for legal aid	The comments from litigants ignore the reasons for the withdrawal of legal aid, which is that the science is against them. This case has been a massive waste of money. Unfortunately anti-vaccine campaigners continue to make similar claims about vaccines causing dyssynostosis and a multitude of other illnesses. To an anti-vaccine campaigner all strange illnesses MUST be due to vaccination, proof or no proof. Competing interests: None declared
Re: LSC GUARANTEES MMR/AUTISM ISSUE IS HERE TO STAY 24 October 2004
Dr John Rumbold, n/a West Midlands Send response to journal: Re: Re: LSC GUARANTEES MMR/AUTISM ISSUE IS HERE TO STAY	Mr Miller like all lawyers has a vested interest in encouragign litigation. The history of mass torts (1) shows that the likelihood of a big win is not related to the science - for example the cases against breast implant manufacturers which were spurious. 1) The King of Torts, John Grisham Competing interests: None declared
Re: Why are those with autism denied justice? 24 October 2004
John P Heptonstall, Director of The Morley Acupuncture Clinic and Complementary Therapy Centre LS27 8EG Send response to journal: Re: Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?	Sir The numerous cases cited by Carol Johnston might suggest that invocation of the Disability Discrimination Act against the LSC is in order -clearly the LSC is preventing seriously disabled persons from putting their case, whether or not the LSC believes there is a reasonable chance of success, it cannot be sure and finance must not be an object where seeking justice is concerned - the vast amounts spent on non- disability cases, in particular immigration cases, make that obvious. I understand that 'scientific evidence' may have been given undue import in the LSC decision making process - yet unless all anecdotal evidence from victims and families, including any material evidence such as video, written reports, written notes (analgous to the use of police notes) taken near the time of any significant events by close associates/families of the disabled persons have been included I do not believe the LSC can justify it's decision not to proceed. Witness and victim evidence must equal or supercede so-called 'scientific evidence'; the latter is almost completely epidemiological which cannot make any claims as to cause, therefore also effect leaving only clinical evidence, clinical research evidence and witness/victim evidence both direct and circumstantial with anything of direct legal significance to be included as a statement of possible causation. Since I left policework almost 2 decades ago I can hardly believe the apparent acceptance of scientific evidence as some kind of absolute that I see nowadays, coincident with the apparent exclusion of extremely important direct witness and victim verbal and recorded evidence - referred to as 'anecdote' in science but suffering no such degradation in law - which is relied on daily to prosecute and convict all kinds of cases. Until the LSC includes every piece of evidence, and gives due status to so-called scientific evidence which cannot make any admission of cause/effect, surely it will not apply justice to the cases of those disabled autistic persons? Regards John H Competing interests: None declared
Time for parents to move on 24 October 2004
Camille Clark, student 95616 USA Send response to journal: Re: Time for parents to move on	I am a middle aged woman with an autism spectrum diagnosis, Asperger's syndrome. I have a grown child who is also on the autism spectrum. I am a student at the University of California at Davis. I have been reading and responding to articles and emails regarding autism, particularly in the U.S. for a couple of years. I read medical journal articles on the topic and attended the IMFAR (International Meeting for Autism Research) conference this year and have listened to many lectures presented by the University of California, Davis, MIND (Medical Investigation of Neurodevelomental Disorders) institute which is dedicated to finding the causes of "the autisms"(Geschwind 2004). I do not believe Dr. Wakefield's research is applicable to any autistics. There are many pressures on the families of autistic children. These pressures are real and have real effects, including the phenomena of "grasping at straws". Some parents will do anything to make themselves feel like they are doing everything they can to "cure" their child. Some autistic children are put through the most severe treatments, including Lovaas-style 40 hour a week Applied Behavioral Analysis, and chelation therapies, as well as things like mud baths and saunas and the taking of many, many supplement pills. The parents are so emotionally invested in this that they can see improvements that aren't there or have a different cause (like just growing up and developing) and if they don't see any improvement they skulk off and don't report their own lack of success in curing their child. Chelation to remove mercury is so highly touted by Bernie Rimland, et. al, that parents do it no matter if it is pointless and sometimes dangerous. People who believe that measles caused their child's autism sometimes have their child transfused with immune globulin. As is practiced by Dr. Jeff Bradstreet in Florida. This is not a standard practice. Kids here are even given colloidal silver which can quickly and permanently cause their skin to turn grey. They are given colloidal silver because they supposedly have too many bacteria in their intestines. There are good things that can be done to improve the lives of autistic children. The good things can be recognized by the gentle approach they take and the respect they give the children for being who they are, autistic. Camille Clark Competing interests: None declared
Re: Conflicts of interests 24 October 2004
Graeme Johnston, Student MK7 6AA Send response to journal: Re: Re: Conflicts of interests	Like Dr Midgley I was (and remain) puzzled that Mr Miller puts "Close relative with life threatening food allergy" as a conflict of interest. Equally puzzling is what some people enter for "current occupation", sometimes apparently designed to add credibility to the very odd views expressed in their letters. Though tabloids often have "Top scientists say..." I'd never known anyone to decribe him or herself as "a scientist" (instead being more specific, eg: "a paleontologist") until I saw Viera Scheibner's eBMJ letters such as this one. Or perhaps "principle" isn't a typing error, and she did used to research principles? Competing interests: None declared
Re: Time for parents to move on 25 October 2004
Carol Johnston, Carer Carshalton, Surrey UK Send response to journal: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	Camille Clark says parents are grasping at straws and that its time to accept the autism in our children and to move on. Firstly, I have not implemented any of the many therapies mentioned by Ms Clark. I accept my kids autism and I love my kids for who and what they are. Secondly from Ms Clark's reply genetics seem to be the reason for diagnosis of aspergers. In my case there is no history of autism in extended family yet I have two children who suffered late onset regressive autism both with associated bowel problems. My children do not have aspergers they are severely affected and are low functioning autists, my son has no speech, is in nappies and has seizures. This followed a perid of normal development which was documented and videoed. We are talking about regression and sudden onset of symptoms like seizure, bowel problems, loss of speech, motor coordination, incontinence in a previously toilet trained child. My daughter was 4.5 years and my son was 16 months old. The issue of this thread is not to seek "blame" for onset of autism (that would be decided in Court) but that children with a diagnosis of autism are being refused access to legal funding. They are being directly discriminated against because of their autism. Whether or not Ms Clark agrees that there is such a thing as vaccine induced autism the issue of autists being denied justice should be one that concerns autists everywhere. Competing interests: Parent of 2 children who regressed developmentally after MMR.
Ad hominem attacks 25 October 2004
John Stone, none London N22 Send response to journal: Re: Ad hominem attacks	1) Dr Rumbold states that the science is against the litigants in the MMR case. As usual he intervenes without producing any evidence himself, although many others have have argued conscientiously about the science in these columns and elsewhere. For the first time in my memory one of his posts has a footnote, significantly perhaps, to a work of fiction by John Grisham. 2) I am not sure why Camille Clark's background enables her to comment on whether the claimants in the MMR case have suffered vaccine damage or not. She does not seem to understand either that there are children who are seriously ill beyond mere neurological dysfunction, nor has she got the message that parents watched their children become ill and lose their faculties after having the injection. Neither she or Dr Rumbold were present when such a thing happened, but the parents were. Many children enjoy and thrive on Lovaas therapy, though others - like my son for example - do not. Again, she makes loose accusations, out of context and without documentation. She uses the usual politicians strategy, when cornered, of announcing it is "time to move on". Well, I think it is time for Camille Clark to move on. 3) Graeme Johnston's response does not rise above the level of irrelevant point scoring. If, for some reason, he does not like what is being said, why cannot he do better than this. It is quite clear that Mr Johnston has taken sides on this matter, but it is not clear what his scientific point is. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic child
Re: Time for parents to move on 25 October 2004
Janette Robb, carer home G84 7PF Send response to journal: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	I am a senior citizen from Scotland and it is now three years since I entered the 'world of the vaccine-damaged'. During that time I have read extensively, spoken to doctors, attended lectures and seminars and have been absolutely horrified at what I have learned. I feel bound to say I have been inspired by the courage, determination and good humour of the brave young parents with whom I have come into contact. They help each other, do their own research, challenge doctors, lawyers, departments of health, governments and drug companies not for the sake of self-appeasement or selfish motives but rather to provide insurance that their children will be well looked after when they are gone, and also perhaps to gain access, in their lifetime, to the biomedical testing and interventions which could make their children's stay on this earth a little more comfortable and a little more pleasant. I should never have done half so well had I to face this tradgedy when I was their age. There is no-one to help them except those courageous doctors, scientists and researchers who have been brave enough to jeopordise their careers, their professional reputations and their personal lives for the sake of their scientific findings. Those of us who can afford it will do our best to find alternative therapies to help our children. We are forced to do this as no help is forthcoming from our Health Service. I speak for many when I say this can be done in a gentle, respectful and positive manner - the wellbeing and wishes of the children being always a first priority. Perhaps you have come to terms in your own way with your lot in life and I wish you well. But if others do not wish to follow your example, you should also respect their choices. Competing interests: Mother and Litigation friend of vaccine-damaged adult.
Re: Time for parents to move on 25 October 2004
John P Heptonstall, Director of the Morley Acupuncture Clinic and Complementary Therapy Centre Leeds LS27 8EG Send response to journal: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	Sir I think Camille's statement says it all " I do not believe Dr. Wakefield's research is applicable to any autistics" - yet the very presence of 'autistics' in Dr Wakefield's research group makes it relevant to those 'autistics' at the very least. As for 'weird remedies', my son gained very noticeable improvements from homeopathic secretin - improvements cited by objective observers as well as family and which were proven by challenge-dechallenge-rechallenge. Regards John H. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Why are those with autism denied justice? 25 October 2004
Graeme Johnston, Student MK7 6AA Send response to journal: Re: Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?	Facts such as whether smoking causes lung cancer, HIV causes AIDS, or MMR causes autism must be established outside the courts. Once the facts have been established, the courts can debate culpability. Smooth-talking charismatic barristers aren't meant to establish the truth; instead, they must put their client's case forward to the best of their ability. The MMR issue is too important for these adversarial theatricals. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Why are those with autism denied justice? 26 October 2004
Jan M Perkins, Assistant professor CMU 49340 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?	Unfortunately a great part of the problem with severe autism in the current climate is that in general the medical profession refuses to deal with the medical problems in this population. If they would we would not be in this mess. Therefore this will probably take more than the 40 or more years to resolve that (for example) the smoking issue took. I have a child with very severe autism - one who at one year old participated in a lab for graduate health professional students to illustrate normal physical and social development. Two months later he was autistic and rapidly deteriorating. I have not sought legal recourse - just medical help. What was I told? My previously omnivorous and particularly fruit-loving child suddenly ceased eating all meat, vegetables, and fruit, screamed at their presentation, and developed gut pain, alternating constipation and diarrhea (up to eight unbeleivably foul burning episodes a day): "He must eat vegetables - give him salads" "He's autistic what do you expect" A child with no history of sleep disorders was suddenly up 5 to 7 nights a week every week screaming and jumping and running for hours until he had a bowel movement. "He's autistic - what do you expect - they have sleep problems" "It's his diet" (talk about circular reasoning) Requests for GI investigation. Either: "He's autistic - it's part of autism" or "I checked with ....... they don't see autistics" Falling off the growth curves: "He sure is different from his brother - must be different genes" Abnormal plasma fatty acids, lactic acid, viral (MMR) titres (I emphasise that these are direct quotes): "That's odd - it must be the autism" My son went years without even the most basic investigation of obvious medical problems - because he was autistic. Through following some of the "alternative" biomedical treatments - although places like Harvard are investigating them - with the aide of a nurse practitioner he now, several years down the line: - sleeps through the night all but one to two nights a month - has begun to speak in one to two word phrases again, demonstrate simple reading skills, and considerable practical problem solving abilities - no longer is self-injurious to an extent that we feared would induce permanent damage (vision, brain contusion etc.) - no longer is a blind, impervious to environment "runner" - once again makes eye contact, expresses affection, and is curious about his environment - no longer has chronic rashes, bloating, "allergy shiners" - and many more changes that would doubtless not be of interest here Treatments proceded along accepted single subject designs with repeated trials and withdrawals of treatment and blinded evaluations where that was possible given the constraints on his care. In brief, my son was normal and documented to be so. He became severely autistic. He is still severely autistic but with some of the associated medical problems addressed he (and his family) are living in a much better situation. I and many of the other parents in similar situations can quite happily live without being patronised by those who refuse to deal with the medical care needs of our children. I have reached the point where I do not particularly care that I cannot find a doctor for my son's normal medical care - I just don't have time for being patronised by those who really haven't a clue what they are talking about and can't be bothered to read more than the abstracts of the primary literature (Pythonesque examples provided on request). I rarely post in this setting because trying to talk to (many) health professionals about the medical needs of autistics is rather like trying to talk to casino operators about compulsive gamblers. It is really a waste of time. And time is something the family of severe autistics don't have to waste. Jan Perkins Personal email: janperkins@yahoo.com Professional email: easily available Competing interests: I care for a child with autism; and neither get nor seek recompense for that
Re: Re: Why are those with autism denied justice? 26 October 2004
Carol Johnston, Carer Carshalton, Surrey UK Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?	G Johnston has cited smoking and lung cancer, HIV and AIDs as examples of direct causality. Not everyone who smokes develops lung cancer. In the same way not every child who has the MMR becomes autistic. Mr Johnston shows no evidence that he has actually read any of the vaccine related threads that he has posted to. Instead he relies on the questionable official scientific epidimological evidence that no link has been found. Mr Johnston fails to mention the main studies which have shown evidence that MMR and autism are linked. I suggest that Mr Johnston re-reads the many threads he has posted to - he will find that MMR leading to autism is mercifully a rare occurrence and is not the sole cause of autism. BSE leading to CJD was a rare occurrence. The MRC and other official bodies have NOT looked at these children so they have been forced to pursue justice via the Courts. If Mr Johnston feels that invoking discrimination is inappropriate I ask him to explain his reasons. Other than the official epidemological scientific evidence, what other reason(s) does he believe this was NOT a decision that directly discriminated against those with a diagnosis of autism? Rather than make sweeping contentious statements perhaps Mr Johnston could enlighten us to the reasons for his views. How much does Mr Johnston know about the children who are involved in the MMR/MR litigation? Does he know their case histories? If not MMR then what reasons does Mr Johnston cite for these children's illnesses? Is Mr Johnston a student of science or medicine? What background and qualifications does Mr Johnston possess that he can dismiss parental observations so summarily? Mr Johnston adopts an ad hominem approach to these threads. Perhaps its time Mr Johnston enlighten us to his own "conflict of interests" and share with us all just why he is able to summarily dismiss what parents have seen happen to their children. The fact is Mr Johnston that children with a diagnosis of autism have been refused access to legal aid because of the diagnosis of autism - irrespective of what other damage they have. No matter what "official" scientific evidence says this as an example of discrimination. Competing interests: Mother and Carer of two children who regressed and developed symptoms of autism following MMR
Re: Why are those with autism denied justice? 26 October 2004
John Stone, none London N22 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Why are those with autism denied justice?	Of course, it would be idle of Graeme Johnston to pretend that the pharmaceutical companies have not spent uncounted millions protecting their legal interests. See for example, Robert Sandall 'MMR- RIP', Sunday Times Magazine, 14 December 2003. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic child
A plea concerning the use of the term "autism" 26 October 2004
A Peter Fletcher, semiretired medic/scientist/ex DHSS Halstead Essex CO92RU Send response to journal: Re: A plea concerning the use of the term "autism"	I have already had my say and have now read all the other quick responses. Volumes should be written about this situation which is truly a tragedy for so many children and parents. A considerable part of the problem is the use of the term "autism". This is being used as if it were a precise diagnosis - it is not - it is an imprecise descriptive term masquerading as a pathological entity. Could we all agree to discontinue its use in relation to the administration of a triple vaccine (MMR)? In its place could we use "vaccine associated bevavioural disorder" and by extension use "vaccine associated digestive disorder" for the co-existing bowel abnormalities? Competing interests: Expert witness for the claimants
Re: Re: Time for parents to move on 26 October 2004
Camille Clark, student 95616 USA Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	I understand that the topic at hand is about money to pay for a legal case to decided if the MMR is the cause of autism in certain children. I also understand that the authorities decided that the case had no merit, which is why they don't want to fund the prosecution of the case. Perhaps someone can correct me if I have misunderstood this. The fact that children regress after getting an MMR shot is not proof that the MMR shot is a cause of autism. People's memories will lie to them. Emotions can drive a belief like: "My child regressed within hours (days, weeks, a year) after receiving the MMR". It's not empirically derived data. In the US the majority of parents of autistic children DO NOT report regression *or* bowel problems in their autistic children. Sally Rogers, of the MIND institute (Medical Investigation of Neurodevelopmental Disorders) just published an article on regression, she points out that the regressed children are the minority, and that the regressed children were categorically different BEFORE the regression than normal children. They tended to speak far less than normal and have a much smaller vocabulary. Regression is a trait of autism, by the way, it may be seen throughout an autistic person's life. They may lose the hard won ability to read at age 10, regain the ability to read, then lose ita again at age 15 and again at age 20. Regression is not limited to toddlers. Regressions don't always follow innoculations. The children who may actually have autism that is absolutely a consequence of vaccines may exist, but if they do they are a very small minority of autistic children. However, its the voices of the ones who believe in the vaccine association who are the loudest and they drown out those who say, "I love my 'low-functioning' autistic child, she reminds me of myself at that age, and she's so much like uncle Ted." Parents of children who *seem* to have been damaged by vaccines don't want to hear that vaccines aren't the cause of their child's problems and they don't want to hear that their child's problems can be dealt with slowly and with inexpensive things like traditional teaching methods and kindness and love. What I see is that they want to be sold a bill of goods that various things can "cure" their child, and in racing after that cure they can harm their child and then say, "I did it for his own good." You may want to read about the work done by Sigman and Siller at University California at Los Angeles, whose presentation with video I watched at the International Meeting for Autism Research (IMFAR) this year, shows that Lovaas style ABA is absolutely contrary to what is best for the autistic child, i.e. the child shouldn't be led and/or coerced into *behaviors*, but the parent should join the child in what the child is doing for the greatest benefit. http://www.cairn- site.com/documents/abstracts/prog04.html Autism has been around for a very, very long time. Autism and autistics provide a different view of the world. Thank God for the creativity and independence of autistics, low, middle and high- functioning. We are not slaves to the trends of this world and we offend your sensibilities. I say this with great pride. I will make one more observation. No one wants to listen to the adult autistics, even those with children who are autistic. We don't fit people's pre-conceived notions of what is true and right. We are the rejects of this world and many people would prefer it if we stayed "in our places". This has been my experience. Camille Clark Davis, California, USA Competing interests: None declared Competing interests: None declared
Re: Camille Clark 28 October 2004
John Stone, none London N22 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Camille Clark	The problem is that Camille Clark has personalised the problem in entirely irrelevant way. The fact that she has an autistic spectrum disorder (ASD) does not give her special insight into medical events to which she was not witness, nor do we know how she excludes the possibility of environmental factors influencing her own case. Again, the legal issue is a red-herring. The several regular contributers to Rapid Responses on the topic on this side of the fence are not litigants. It is not clear why the pharmaceutical giants forking out tens of millions of pounds in defence of their position, are inherently more trustworthy than the parents. Nor, why parents should prostrate themselves before opaque, unverifiable official statistics which systematically exlude their own evidence. The resort to epidemiology - at best a very weak kind of indicator - is in itself an act of bad faith. As both Clifford Miller and Peter Fletcher have expertly argued above the exclusion of these cases from the courts is not in line with the normal principles of either evidence or justice. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic child
Vested Interest 28 October 2004
Dr John Rumbold, n/a West Midlands Send response to journal: Re: Vested Interest	The point is made in "Hippocratic Oaths" (reviwed in this week's BMJ) that MMR manufacturers have no vested interest in supporting MMR over single vaccines. Since MMR is out of patent, they would make more profit from single vaccines. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on 28 October 2004
Carol Johnston, Carer Carshalton, Surrey UK Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	Camille Clark is correct that the authorities deemed children with a diagnosis of autism did not merit pursuing (this decision was taken on the basis of epidemological scientific evidence). Children with diagnosis of epilepsy alone were awarded funding. A child with epilepsy and autism were not because of the diagnosis of autism. I am aware that the vast majority of high functioning autists like Ms Clark are skeptical of the notion of autism triggered by vaccination and I understand that many would reject the idea that autistic individuals are somehow damaged or faulty. Our personal experiences in life form our belief in what we see and know. My children regressed three times. Twice for my daughter and once for my son. Each time the regression followed in the wake of vaccination. Perhaps some would say this is figment of my imagination and faulty memory. However, video tape, photographs, child development records and reports from my daughter's playgroup are hard evidence of events. Ms Clark cites a study by Sally Rogers saying that signs of abnormal development were present before regression. Its intresting to note that Sally Rogers is also quoted as saying: "There have been a number of studies on the issue, but nothing showing there’s an empirical linkage. There’s just no evidence that vaccines have a role," Rogers said. That doesn’t mean vaccines can’t trigger an autistic condition for some children, however, she said. Primarily, she said autism is the result of an interplay of genes. Scientists are now researching how environmental conditions could affect existing genetic conditions to spike the number of autism cases, she said." So it seems Ms Rogers is of the opinion that although no link has yet been found the possibility that vaccines can and do have a role to play in regressive autism is yet unclear. Further Ms Rogers fails to come up with a reason for the regression other than "unknown environmental influence". It seems the majority of experts now agree that there are hidden triggers - parents are pointing directly to vaccines as a trigger. Yet parents are pompously told we are mistaken, hysterical, blame seeking and in denial. As well as inferring parents' memories are faulty Ms Clarke critcises the many forms of therapy employed by parents. Obviously Ms Clark as an autist feels strongly about some of the therapies used by parents. I myself have reservations about some of therapies used on autists. This is why I have not implemented them. Ms Clark implies parents should value and accept their children as they are "autistic". I would like to ask Ms Clark how often she changes her adult son's diaper or at what age he was toilet trained? Which method other than spoken language she uses to communicate with her son? Or does he have any form of communication? How exhausting it is to provide 24 hour a day support to get dressed, to eat, to wash? Its difficult isnt it Ms Clark. Lack of sleep too is difficult to cope with. Of course how selfish of parents to try to help their children to learn basic life skills. How long it take for the black eye to heal because my son kicked me whilst changing his diaper. I fail to see how Ms Clark feels I should be rejoicing in these limitations that my son has? If I am missing something here maybe she would be so kind to point out what I missing? Perhaps the next time my son escapes my hold and runs into a busy road almost getting killed I should be valuing that aspect of his autism that almost killed him. However, some of the children involved in the MMR litigation cannot run as they are in wheelchairs - another aspect of autism to celebrate no doubt. Ms Clark obviously has an agenda which involves criticising NT parents of autistic children and is concerned with the way parents view their children. Fact is the majority of autistic children have NT parents. By criticising and accusing NT parents of therapeutic forms of abuse and de-valuing their autistic children she will only serve to alienate those parents. As a parent, I am happy to listen to first being told I am mistaken in my observations of my children (post vaccinations) and then am accused of systematic abuse (ABA therapy) and further that I do not love or value my children because they have a diagnosis of autism. From one mother to another Ms Clark. Firstly I resent your implying that I do not love or value my children as they are. If you truly want to influence parents to the betterment of autistic children you might find that attacking parents is not the best way to do it. Further "I love my low functioning son and high functioning daughter but they are NOTHING like me when I was that age and certainly Uncle Fred was out of nappies by the time he was 2 years old and is the life and soul at family parties but he too loves my kids even though he does not fully understand their autism". NT parents of autists too experience the attitudes society has towards our children, we know our kids don't fit society's pre-conceived notions of the status quo. We suffer these attitudes by proxy if you like. Although my children may be vaccine damaged they certainly are NOT rejects! Parents know their children. Telling us we are blatently mistaken helps no one least of all the cause of high functioning autists who are fighting quite rightly for recognition and to be valued as autists. If you have an axe to grind by attacking parents you are way off target. I find it ironic that whilst you are obviously concerned with the rights of autists you are complacement to accept a decision that has targetted individuals with a diagnosis of autism. You will accept this decision because you personally dont believe that vaccine incuded autism exists. Although you state: "The children who may actually have autism that is absolutely a consequence of vaccines may exist, but if they do they are a very small minority of autistic children ..." Well what is Ms Clark? Do you believe these children exist or not? Fact is these children were damaged by something. Parents and medical records and video evidence points to regression in the wake of vaccination. I would like to stress that I am well aware that autists regress. Its common in puberty and a response to stress. But how often do these regressions manifest in physical onset of symptoms like seizure, loss of language, loss of balance and coordination, incontinence, bowel problems? Thank god for autists like yourself Ms Clark. Autists are known to have sensitivities. Have you ever stopped to wonder whether some born autists are sensitive to the ingredients in the vaccines and are perhaps react adversarily to them. What explanation does Ms Clark offer to the explosion in numbers of those diagnosed with PDDs and ASD disorders other than to point to unknown environmental factors. Parents of vaccine damaged children are pointing to triggers yet people (like yourself) dismiss them and continue to search for obscure causes. Perhaps if these so called scientists had listened to parents and doctors like Andrew Wakefield and looked at these children we might have solved this riddle by now instead of forcing families through the legal system to try and find answers as to what has happened to our children. Competing interests: 2 Children who regressed developmentally following MMR
Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on 28 October 2004
Janette Robb, carer Home G84 7PF Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	Legal funding has been withdrawn for those whose children suffer Autism and Inflammatory Bowel Disorder but funding for those children who suffer other conditions triggered by MMR is being reinstated. In the Doctor's magazine PULSE yesterday, the Legal Funding Commission was quoted as saying 'there was a reasonable prospect' that those children will succeed in their claim for compensation. MMR debate is far from over in this country. How do we know to what extent politics were involved in the decision not to reinstate funding for Autistic/IBD children? We don't. It is very possible that autistic children ARE born with a minor immunilogical genetic gliche - that would explain why just a small percentage go on to develop regressive autism post MMR, and not every child. However, it is my belief that those with minor genetic gliches would go on to lead 'normal' and fulfilling lives had MMR (and other vaccines) never been administered. There is research taking place in this area, in the hope of finding a test which could be carried out at birth to make sure the immune system of the newborn will be able to handle vacccines. If a child has a compromised immune system he/she will not be able to excrete the toxic ingredients. If the detox pathways are blocked or inefficient then the toxins remain in the body and cause chronic illness. In UK cancer is now at 1 in 3 - asthma at 1 in 5. I believe in US asthma now affects 48% of the population. Environmental toxins, whether eaten, drunk, ingested or injected play a huge part in the massive increase in chronic illness. Unless we can find a way to help the body expel these toxins safely, the rise in chronic, auto- immune disorders will continue. At the moment, only therapies on the Alternative side of medicine offer solutions. They should also be considering delaying administration of vaccines until the Pancreas and blood-brain barrier are fully developed. In your studies you may have come across the work of Jacquelyn McCandless who explains very clearly the different physical causations of autism - genetics, heavy metals, toxic chemicals, yeast overgrowths, viruses.... I believe the first case of autism was diagnosed in the early forties, not THAT long ago, and, coincidentally, (?) just a few short years after the introduction of Thimerosal. As it happens, my son received MMR aged 15, and started to show symptoms of something going sadly wrong, within 10 days of administration. I should add I have a very good memory and so has my son - it was he who pointed out when illness started. Not empirically derived data? It was good enough for the fully qualified, highly respected doctor who told us the illness was triggered by the vaccines. I was grateful to her as it gave us a clear starting point to engage in 'alternative therapies'. He has improved a great deal and is a much happier young man than he was 3 years ago. I do resent the implication that because we blame vaccines as having been the trigger of our son's illness, that we don't love our 'low functioning' adult son. We both love him dearly and it is possible to 'treat him with kindness and love' while at the same time try different therapies to help him further! If you and your ASD child have a totally 'genetic' form of autism, I dont know if there is any intervention you could try. But be sure there is no need for you to feel guilty at not experimenting with different techniques - you do not 'offend my sensibilities' by choosing your own path through this life - each to their own. Competing interests: Mother and litigation friend of vaccine-damaged adult.
Unlocking the secrets of Beethoven's hair 28 October 2004
John Stone, none London N22 Send response to journal: Re: Unlocking the secrets of Beethoven's hair	On one point I am in total agreement with Camille Clark, and that is the extraordinary contribution of many ASD people. It was as long ago as 1971 when the then director of Harperbury Hospital (if memory serves) gave a talk at my school in which he mentioned that Beethoven was perhaps autistic. I think that from the huge body of documentary evidence (too great to begin detailing here) it would be entirely reasonable to suggest that according to modern definitions Beethoven had Asperger syndrome. I also note that a lock of his hair recently came to light and was subjected to scientific analysis. This revealed that the level of lead present at the time of his death was forty-two times control samples [1]. Russell Martin, 'Beethoven's Hair', Bloomsbury 2000, p.234-5. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic child
A plea concerning the use of the term "Autism" 28 October 2004
Joan C. Campbell, Carer Glasgow G64 3EU Send response to journal: Re: A plea concerning the use of the term "Autism"	Firstly I should like to thank Dr Fletcher for representing 2 families at the Legal Services Commission in early October. The same thanks also goes to Dr Stott. These two doctors were not paid for their time and I appreciate what they did for the 2 families plus when they spoke they were basically representing all the other families who turned up to appeal the decision. I agree with Dr Fletcher whole heartily when he says that the term Autism is branded arounded too easily. I have been saying for ages that my son has had a wrong diagnosis of Autism instead he should have the diagnosis of vaccine damage as a result of the MMR. I love my low functioning non verbal son and I intend to look after him the rest of my life. No way will he ever go and stay in a residential home where I can not control what happens to him. I am not anti-vaccine I just want safe vaccines, but the way my son is now I will never allow another vaccine into my son's precious body. We all have crosses to bear in this life and it is how you bear that cross that determines your path in life. We are here to love care and respect our children, as they are the innocent ones. Never in a million years did I ever expect to be in this situation but I am strong and I know that I am not alone in this. Competing interests: Mother and Litigation friend to vaccine damaged son
Re: Vested Interest 29 October 2004
John Stone, none London N22 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Vested Interest	Dr Rumbold raises the very interesting question as to why the drug companies should be so vigourously defending a product they have so little future financial interest in, unless they fear damning evidence and great costs. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic child
Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on 29 October 2004
Camille Clark, student 95616 USA Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	My Response to Ms. Johnston "I am aware that the vast majority of high functioning autists like Ms Clark are skeptical of the notion of autism triggered by vaccination and I understand that many would reject the idea that autistic individuals are somehow damaged or faulty." You are correct. "Our personal experiences in life form our belief in what we see and know...." Agreed. Did you know that I am the mother of a "middle functioning" adult child on the autism spectrum? "Perhaps some would say this is figment of my imagination and faulty memory. However, video tape, photographs, child development records and reports from my daughter's playgroup are hard evidence of events." If you read Dr. Rogers' article then you know that she agrees that regression does occur. The MIND (Medical Investigation of Neurodevelopmental Disorders) institute for which she works is rather on the side of the parents who are demanding that an explanation be given for the "epidemic" in autism here. In fact, I have said elsewhere that it would appear that the MIND institute is heavily influenced by parents who believe in the "mercury in vaccines is the cause of autism" theory. For some reason the MIND institute hasn't really pursued either mercury or MMR in their research as much as they have pursued other genetic causes. They have yet to point to a gene that is somehow linked to a immune issue or a "heavy metal excretion" issue. If you would like an analysis of the political-game- playing actions of the MIND insitute from my perspective, I can give that. It would only be my opinion, however. Some of the "evidence" of a "spike" in cases of autism in the United States has been quite blatently "cooked" or grossly misrepresented. People have apparently felt the need to scream "epidemic" in order to get funding for autism research. Autism research is an extraordinarily new thing, a point made by Dr. Anthony Bailey in a presentation he made at the MIND institute about 2 years ago. Dr. Bailey is an Oxford don. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/yy_20041011.shtml There is a comparitively minute amount of good research that has been repeated that anyone can point to with confidence in the area of autism. "...Yet parents are pompously told we are mistaken, hysterical, blame seeking and in denial." Maybe parents are told, "we have looked for a connection between autism and vaccinations and have found none." "As well as inferring parents' memories are faulty Ms Clarke critcises the many forms of therapy employed by parents." Yes, I do. I do quite vigorously criticise *some* parents of autistic children. Actually, I am saying that the memories of parents can be vastly influenced by their emotions. This is not an idea I created. I criticise Lovaas style ABA (Applied Behavioral Analysis) therapy at every opportunity. It is gross. It is wrong. It is based on faulty experimental evidence that has not been supported by further experiments. The latest information on how children with autism learn shows that ABA is by far not the best way to teach an autistic child. There is an "industry" here of people trained to do ABA. They don't want to "retool". They want to keep doing what they are doing, with their stopwatches and clipboards and reinforcers. However, I will stipulate that not all ABA is "Lovaas" inspired and some may be beneficial in limited ways. "I would like to ask Ms Clark how often she changes her adult son's diaper or at what age he was toilet trained? Which method other than spoken language she uses to communicate with her son? Or does he have any form of communication?" My son is not autistic. He is what I call, "mostly normal". He is a plumber and a wonderful young man. My daughter (has the same father) is on the autism spectrum. She was not able to graduate from high school, she is mentally impaired, but does speak. She uses a wheelchair and changes her own "nappies". I changed them for her until she was about 10 years old or so. This is the absolute truth. If you come here you can meet her. "How exhausting it is to provide 24 hour a day support to get dressed, to eat, to wash? Its difficult isnt it Ms Clark?" My adult autism spectrum child will never be able to live on her own, but doesn't require that level of care, she did when she was requiring post-surgical care when she was younger. The latest data from here in California shows that most autistic children and adults who get services from the state are not retarded. They have normal intelligence. I am guessing that your son is both autistic and with very low IQ, but that's just a guess. "Lack of sleep too is difficult to cope with. Of course how selfish of parents to try to help their children to learn basic life skills. How long it take for the black eye to heal because my son kicked me whilst changing his diaper." When did anyone say that any child shouldn't be taught self care? Interesting assumption you make there. Parents aren't selfish if they try to teach their children to do the most they can for themselves. Parents are misled if they believe that ABA is the best way to teach autistic children, in my opinion. "I fail to see how Ms Clark feels I should be rejoicing in these limitations that my son has? If I am missing something here maybe she would be so kind to point out what I missing?" I rejoice at the reality that my very disabled child is brave and uses what she has in the most advantageous way she can. She is a treasure. She carries a physical burden that I doubt many could bear, and she does it with sheer grace. "Perhaps the next time my son escapes my hold and runs into a busy road almost getting killed I should be valuing that aspect of his autism that almost killed him." I can't agree with that. But you should rejoice that he can run. My child never has. "However, some of the children involved in the MMR litigation cannot run as they are in wheelchairs - another aspect of autism to celebrate no doubt." Life is a terribly unfair thing. Let me tell you about how unfair life has been to me sometime. I do not believe that the MMR has contributed to those children's lack of ability to walk. "Ms Clark obviously has an agenda which involves criticising NT parents of autistic children and is concerned with the way parents view their children." Agenda? Maybe. I have an opinion. I don't profit personally from sharing it, except that possibly people will see me and my peers as less like freaks and more like humans if I promote autism as not all tragedy. "Fact is the majority of autistic children have NT parents." That depends on how you define "NT". The majority of autistic children have parents who are in engineering and the arts, and have blood relatives are beset by mental disorders like bipolar disorder, social anxiety and depression. I'll have to dig up that research if you want the citations. I think Simon Baron-Cohen did some of it. "By criticising and accusing NT parents of therapeutic forms of abuse and de-valuing their autistic children she will only serve to alienate those parents." I suppose I will alienate some and some parents, those who aren't wedded to their current beliefs might be influenced by what I say to the benefit of their children. "As a parent, I am happy to listen to first being told I am mistaken in my observations of my children (post vaccinations) and then am accused of systematic abuse (ABA therapy) and further that I do not love or value my children because they have a diagnosis of autism." I didn't say those things about you. If one loves their child they will value him or her as is. I love my child I never wanted her to be anything but who she is. There are parents of autistic kids who refuse to accept their autistic behaviors and demand that they stop acting autistic. They want their children to "perform" as if they are neurotypicals, never mind that the children are already overburdened with doing the basics of life in autistic fashion. I don't think that description fits you. "From one mother to another Ms Clark. Firstly I resent your implying that I do not love or value my children as they are." From one mother to another, firstly, I know that autistics are most often seen as intrinsically unacceptable. "If you truly want to influence parents to the betterment of autistic children you might find that attacking parents is not the best way to do it." This board is for professionals as much as it is for parents. There are professionals who are selling bogus treatments for autism and I want them to stop. One way they sell the bogus treatments is to manipulate the parents. "Further "I love my low functioning son and high functioning daughter but they are NOTHING like me when I was that age and certainly Uncle Fred was out of nappies by the time he was 2 years old and is the life and soul at family parties but he too loves my kids even though he does not fully understand their autism"." That's fine. You are an example of the vocal parents who can't say or refuse to say that autism is found in their extended family. ... "Although my children may be vaccine damaged they certainly are NOT rejects!" I certainly experience social rejection every day. I can not properly generate social behavior in real time. That is how I came to have an autism spectrum diagnosis. I have felt like a "reject" all my life. "... You will accept this decision because you personally dont believe that vaccine incuded autism exists. Although you state: "The children who may actually have autism that is absolutely a consequence of vaccines may exist, but if they do they are a very small minority of autistic children ..." Well what is Ms Clark? Do you believe these children exist or not?" I believe they may exist, but I don't believe that it's likely. That's what I said. I can not categorically prove that the MMR has never ever caused a child to behave autistically. I can not categorically prove many things that I have deduced logically by looking at evidence. "Thank god for autists like yourself Ms Clark. Autists are known to have sensitivities. Have you ever stopped to wonder whether some born autists are sensitive to the ingredients in the vaccines and are perhaps react adversarily to them." I wondered, I read about it, then I decided it was a dead end theory. Autism has existed for centuries, long before vaccinations. "What explanation does Ms Clark offer to the explosion in numbers of those diagnosed with PDDs and ASD disorders other than to point to unknown environmental factors." I explain it in here, in part. http://www.geocities.com/autistry/conspiracy.html If you go to www.oddizm.com you can see how others explain the gross manipulation of statistics regarding autism as far as the United States. "Perhaps if these so called scientists had listened to parents and doctors like Andrew Wakefield and looked at these children we might have solved this riddle by now instead of forcing families through the legal system to try and find answers as to what has happened to our children." I suppose so. I also suppose that if Dr. Wakefield's research had more credibility he would be famous now for having solved the riddle of autism, but that's just my opinion. Camille Clark Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Vested Interest 30 October 2004
Dr John Rumbold, n/a West Midlands Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Vested Interest	The drug companies have every reason to fear that big awards may be made regardless of the science - look at the breast implants litigation with millions awarded for diseases not caused by breast implants at all. It is well known that sympathy pays a bigger part in these cases than science, and this is why the court room is no place to debate science. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Vested Interest 31 October 2004
John P Heptonstall, Director of The Morley Acupuncture Clinic and Complementary Therapy Centre Leeds LS27 8EG Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Vested Interest	Sir Rumbold is correct when he says that the court room is no place to debate science - it is the place where scientific and all other evidence should meet and gain worthy place. All evidence must be awarded the same deference, every witness be it victim, observer, scientist is entitled to the same degree of well-considered respect and evaluation of what they say or demonstrate, no more and no less. Though let us not foget that what a witness has seen, and a victim experienced, will remain true forever; but what is today's scientific fact may be tomorrow's science fiction. Regards John H. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on 31 October 2004
Saadedine Tebbal, Lab Manager Texas, 77477 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	Ms. Clark, Obviously you have a high functionning autism since you are student, can read and understand everything. I think that this is why you are saying to parents to move on. As a parent of a 3-year-old autistic kid, I will be happy if I knew that my kid will be able to go to school, and have a normal job and life like yours. I would not care if he will be labelled as autistic, asperger, normal or not. I am trying to move on as you said. However, I have another kid and vaccinations are mandatory. So if most of the parents like me are sure that the vaccine is the cause of autism, why should I vaccinate my second kid and see him regress into autism. I am a chemist and after reading everything I can read about autism, I do not trust anymore the medical industry. The tobacco industry, alcohol industry and illegal drug industry market and sells their products without forcing us to take it. However, the pharmaceutical industry lobby congress (more than $400 million spent and more than one lobbyer per congressman in 2003) to mandate vaccinations. The CDC (Center for Disease Control) panel that decide on which vaccine to mandate to the already high number of 22 before 2 years old, has 50% of them holding patents on the vaccine they are trying to add or consult with the company that produce the vaccine they want added. The pharmaceutical industry spend almost $30,000 per physician per year in marketing and bribes. Vaccine contain heavy metals such as mercury and aluminum, solvents such as formaldehyde which are all known to be toxic. I would have agreed with you if the lawsuit was about the tobbaco or alcohol industry because they did not force anybody to smoke or drink. They did not lobby congress to make smoking or alcohol mandatory. However, the vaccine are mandatory and are supposed to be tested adequately so the companies and government are responsible if things go wrong mainly because it is mandatory. I dont know from where you got your information, but all the parents I talked to in the US have kids that have regressive autism. It means their kids including mine was fine before being injected with all the toxic chemicals called vaccines. The information and references you mention are from the MIND institute in California. There are only two centers in the US who have huge money for "research" on autism - The MIND institute and Cure Autism Now. Both of them have spent tens of millions and have found nothing (zip, zero) to help autistic kids yet (not even a lollypop to calm them). They are funded in part by the pharmaceutical companies to make sure they spend the money mainly on Genetics (meaning nobody fault). Although there is only a few scientific study linking genetic to autism, the NIH (National Institute of Health) provide more than $300 Million for Genetic research. But when most of the observation of the parents hint at the vaccine link to autism, the NIH provides about $56,000 to do one small research into the subject. The GFCF diet (gluten-free caseine-free) and ABA (Applied Behavior Analysis) which most parents have observed to help are not even researched. For your information ABA have been around for more than 50 years. It is taught at the graduate level in the University of California at Los Angeles with Master's and Ph.D. degrees It is a proven science that is older than autism and genetics. It is applied to train new workers or people who had an accident. The main ABA method is to divide a task in small steps and teach the steps separately one by one and then combine them together until the student learn how to do the task easily. Thus, ABA was not created for autism. It was found that it worked really good with autistic kids and the method most commonly used is called dicrete trials. My son started talking again just after one month on ABA therapy. He can ask for what he needs now. He can read, add but still cannot comprehend time or play appropriately with other kids. He started ABA at 20 months and is still on ABA until 6 years old. It is not because he was growing that he started talking. As an example, he started ABA with another 4-year -old kid. Because he was young, it was easy for him to learn fast and reach within two months what the 4-year-old kid knew. He also started sleeping through the night when we started the CFGF diet. This helped his health and readiness to learn. Best Regards Saadedine Tebbal, Ph.D. Competing interests: Parent of an Autistic Kid
Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on 1 November 2004
John T. Neisworth, Professor Emeritus Penn State 16802 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	I agree that ABA is a powerful technology for builing constructive behavior, as well as to weaken and/or eliminate behavior that obstructs constructive development. Let me point out, however, that "ABA" is not synonomous with Discrete Trial or Lovaas Method: both of these are built on behavior principles. There are many other effective procedures also built on ABA. I am co-author of a new Autism Encyclopedia (Brookespublishing.com) that, I hope, will help parents and professionals sort out the differences among the various treatments. I am also not convinced re the roles of vaccines, one way or the other, but I do pay attention to the reports of parents who seem to continue to argue against the assertion of no connection between vaccines and pdd. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on 1 November 2004
Camille Clark, student 95616 USA Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	Ms. Tebbal, You say: "As a parent of a 3-year-old autistic kid, I will be happy if I knew that my kid will be able to go to school, and have a normal job and life like yours. I would not care if he will be labelled as autistic, asperger, normal or not." I must say, you are badly mistaken if you think my life is normal. If my life was "normal", I in no way could have received a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome, and that is not a joke. You are even more mistaken if you don't think I know what it means to be the mother of a handicapped child who can not have a typical life. My handicapped child is already an adult and she was not able to graduate from high-school, much less attend a university. Nevertheless, she is wonderful and a blessing to me. "I am trying to move on as you said. However, I have another kid and vaccinations are mandatory." Seems to me that lots of people are finding ways around the request for children to get these very important vaccinations. Is it not possible for you to get a release from the requirement? I dare say it is. "The state of Texas in law grants and acknowledges the right of parents to exempt their children from vaccination requirements for day care, school, and college for reasons of conscience including a religious belief or for medical reasons. In 2003, the Texas legislature passed changes to the statutes expanding the reasons a parent can claim an exemption but the Health Department has questionably also increased the bureaucratic red tape necessary for claiming the exemption. There are specific procedures for requesting an official state form and submitting it to the school or for completing a medical exemption that all take some time so please don't wait until the last minute to get your papers in order." http://www.vaccineinfo.net/exemptions/index.shtml So now, if you believe that measles can cause autism, it's up to you to decide if you would like to risk having your child end up autistic from the wild-type measles virus, which could also make your child blind or deaf or have even worse consequences. "Vaccine contain heavy metals such as mercury and aluminum, solvents such as formaldehyde which are all known to be toxic. " It's up to you to research to see if your child gets more aluminum in his brain from one shot of vaccine or from one cookie made with typical baking powder or from something cooked in an aluminum pot, or from a pickle made crisp with alum. If the amount of formaldehyde in one day's worth of vaccinations is higher than what he might have been exposed to on any given day before he was born, or since, then you might have a point, but people who yell "mercury, formaldehyde and aluminum" don't seem to be willing to look at the other sources of those things in the child's environment. Further, they don't seem to be concerned with PCBs (polychlorinated biphenyl) or stuff like chromium 6, which occurs naturally in my own tap water. http://www.nsc.org/library/chemical/Formalde.htm http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mindinstitute/html/news/current/position.html It's also up to you to decide that had your child been born 100 years ago if he still would have been autistic. As I continually point out, the numbers that many point to that indicate "epidemic" are grossly abused figures from the United States Department of Education, Individuals with Disabilities Education Act reports. http://www.geocities.com/autistry/conspiracy.html http://www.autism-watch.org/general/edu.shtml As for the other frequently quoted number of "autism" being as prevalent as "1 in 166", that too is misleading. It is taken from survey figures that reflect "all forms of PDDs" (Pervasive Developmental Disorders) which occur in the general population at a ratio of "around 30/10,000" or "might be as high as 60/10,000." (1) It is misleading because children with milder forms of autism were definately overlooked and undiagnosed in the past, and those children are part of that "1 in 166" figure. According to the state of California, more than half of the children and adults being served by the regional centers of the Department of Developmental Services have normal IQs. The greatest increase has been in the category of autistic children with normal IQs. Autistic children with normal IQs still need help, but they aren't "retarded". "I dont know from where you got your information, but all the parents I talked to in the US have kids that have regressive autism." Yes, their children may have regressed, but the majority of "core syndrome" autistic children do not regress, as shown in Sally Roger's recent paper(2). And yes, they may have regressed but they probably had some signs of delay before they obviously regressed. And as for what may have "triggered" the regression, before the autism-vaccination furor people didn't blame vaccines for the regressions but blamed other things that had happened around the time of the regression. "The information and references you mention are from the MIND institute in California. There are only two centers in the US who have huge money for "research" on autism - The MIND institute and Cure Autism Now. Both of them have spent tens of millions and have found nothing (zip, zero) to help autistic kids yet (not even a lollypop to calm them)." CAN offered the Rapid Prompting Method of Soma Mukopadhayay as a cure for autism, and hyped it as even better than Lovaas' style Applied Behavioral Analysis. But for some reason they dropped Soma and her method. Perhaps because research shows that the methodology behind ABA and similar training is contrary to the best way to teach autistic children. Marian Sigman from University California at Los Angeles, home of Dr. Lovaas, showed that autistic children learn best when they are not commanded to do things(3). No one is listening to the new data but they keep dredging up the ancient Lovaas study which is flawed and hasn't been replicated (4). http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/autism.html "They are funded in part by the pharmaceutical companies to make sure they spend the money mainly on Genetics (meaning nobody fault)." Can you prove that the pharmaceutical companies are funding the research into autism? "The GFCF diet (gluten-free caseine-free) and ABA (Applied Behavior Analysis) which most parents have observed to help are not even researched." You are wrong (see the following link). http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mindinstitute/html/research_program/research_studies.html I hope your son continues to develop, though he will no doubt follow an atypical route, he will continue to develop. I suggest you don't tell him that autism is a tragedy and creates a burden on the tax-payers, because he might take it personally. I do. Camille Clark autistic mother of an adult on the autism spectrum psychology student, UC Davis (1)Fombonne E. Epidemiological surveys of autism and other pervasive developmental disorders: an update. J Autism Dev Disord. 2003 Aug;33(4):365-82. (2) Rogers, SJ. Developmental regression in autism spectrum disorders. Ment Retard Dev Disabil Res Rev. 2004;10(2):139-43. (3)Siller M, Sigman M. The behaviors of parents of children with autism predict the subsequent development of their children's communication. J Autism Dev Disord. 2002 Apr;32(2):77-89. (4)Lovaas OI. Behavioral treatment and normal educational and intellectual functioning in young autistic children. J Consult Clin Psychol. 1987 Feb;55(1):3-9 Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Re: Vested Interest 1 November 2004
Dr John Rumbold, n/a West Midlands Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Vested Interest	Heptonstall emphasises individual experience over science - not surprising as homeopathy has been subjected to very little rigorous scientific scrutiny. In criminal cases eye witness accounts are considered less reliable than scientific evidence. The plural of anecdote is not data! Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Time for parents to move on 1 November 2004
Dr John Rumbold, n/a West Midlands Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	Autism, like many disorders which modern medicine has no effective treatment for yet, has had many false dawns. Secretin was hailed as a miracle cure, all the more attractive perhaps for official scepticism. Parents complained that it was not available on the NHS and there was substantial media attention. It has gone by the wayside without a murmur to remind the public of the importance of scientific evaluation and the folly of applying consumerism to healthcare. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Vested Interest 2 November 2004
John P Heptonstall, Director of the Morley Acupuncture Clinic Leeds LS27 8EG Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Vested Interest	Sir Rumbold yet again makes ludicrous unsupportable sweeping statements: - I would like to see his evidence for the statement "in criminal cases eyewitness evidence accounts are considered less reliable than scientific evidence". A prima facie case is developed from various types of evidence, and if one or more eyewitnesses provide a description of events that fits well with all other evidence, not necessarily including scientific evidence, it is highly unlikely that any scientific evidence suggesting events contrary to the evidence fitting the scene will take precedence over their accounts. Any judge worth his/her salt should send the contrary scientific evidence packing. I do agree that in some cases, eg SBS/MSBP baby cases, judges seem to have allowed 'scientific experts' too much credibility - they confused 'eminence' with 'expertise'; one hopes appropriate lessons were learned by the judiciary. The Birmingham Six trials and later appeals show how one has to be aware of the frailty of 'scientific evidence' and it's propensity for change with time - as I said before vivid eyewitness accounts remain the same, until bits fade with time, but they do not develop into diametrically opposed opinion, as can science, over time. The plural of anecdote can be data. How do physicians collect data if not from the anecdotal evidence of their patients? The Avon longitudinal study (referred to in Heron et al 2004) took anecdotal evidence from mothers of their children during the period covering 6 months old to to 7.5 years old about their health, lives and conditions rather than collecting continuous medical histories during that period - and called it data. Individual experience is as important as, and in many cases more important than, science especially where science is limited in its scope and information eg. in post-vacination events. I'm not sure of Rumbold's reference to homeopathy - it's not something I have ever practised but do know that there is scientific data that supports it's reliability. Regards John H. Competing interests: None declared
Re: a diversion on eye witness reliability 3 November 2004
Adrian K Midgley, GP Exeter EX1 2QS Send response to journal: Re: Re: a diversion on eye witness reliability	Heptonstall would like to see some evidence about the comparative reliability of eye witness accounts and forensic examination. Try some of the 313 Google hits on this search:- http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22criminal+cases%22+eyewitness+accounts+considered+less+reliable+than+scientific+evidence&btnG=Search The search phrase is "criminal cases" eyewitness accounts considered less reliable than scientific evidence Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on 3 November 2004
Carol Johnston, Carer Carshalton, Surrey UK Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	My Response to Ms. Clarke Parents can and do want to move on but in order to do that they need treatment for the many physical problems their kids have and money to get the treatment, which is sadly lacking because mainstream medicine is too close minded to recognise the problems these children have. Our children are given a diagnosis of autism and we are told - there is nothing can be done - our children are written off by mainstream medicine. Take a look at Jan Perkin's post for typical reaction from medics. "What do you expect he has autism?" ........... regarding legal aid withdrawal, the funding was originally withdrawn because the Legal Services Commission decided it would not use public funding for research. Parents are trying their best to help enhance their children's opportunities and chances. In the UK we have to fight for suitable educational places due to high demand (too many autistic kids) and lack of financial resources. Support services for families are stretched to breaking point. Many families are left to cope alone. Parents are trying their best to fight for adequate provision to enable children to live a full and productive life with as much independence is possible. Your last posts certainly inform readers of your views with regard to this debate. Allow me to better explain my position. My son was a bright, clever baby who developed on target if not ahead of his milestones. He had speech - followed verbal requests (this is recorded on video tape) - he would gesture to our cat, hand outstretched calling "tat" "puss puss". All meaningful language stopped almost to the day of his MMR, he was ill with a rash and high temperature and lost speech, gestures and social responses. As a neutotypical mother I make a point in learning all I can about ASDs and the people I find are best to help my understanding are high functioning autists or Aspies who have helped open my eyes and and adjust my neurotypical mind to understand my children's ASDs. I agree, life is terribly unfair and I am sure growing up with AS was not easy. However, am I right in assuming you did not have diagnosis until adulthood? Your words about feeling rejected makes it clear how difficult it must have been for you. Neurotypicals also have their share of problems, its just NTs dont really have any reason to blame it on, other than that's life, its the way the cookie crumbles so to speak. My son was diagnosed at the age of 2 years - autism was mentioned and he was referred at 18 months old. Six weeks after MMR and 8 weeks after having a developmental test which he had passed with no concerns raised - indeed I was told he was bright clever little boy and I was proud of his achievements. You state that you believe these "vaccine induced autistics" may exist, but don't believe that it's likely. You further say you have deduced logically by looking at evidence. These children are living evidence, the fact that they regressed and deterioriated following vaccination is something that should warrant further investigation. Surely if someone reports an adverse reaction and deterioration these children should be looked at, but sadly aside from Dr Wakefield, O'Leary and Singh - no one seems to have the courage to do this. Autism is believed to be caused in many different ways. Genetics, congenital Rubella, brain trauma/inflamation, toxins, following serious viral infection - vaccination seems to cover quite a few of the known causes of autism - parents are reporting regression and onset of physical symptos following vaccination - yet obscure unknown causes are being sought. I agree Autism has always been around, many famous people have had (post-death) diagnosis - but the "autism" my children have is not the autism Einstein, Newton, Michael Angelo or you have. I find it ironic that whilst so much research (epidimology) has not found a vaccine link, no credible explanation is given, as to what actually did happen to cause such devasting regression and beginnings of physical symptoms in these children. Parents are told. Your child was probably always on the spectrum, you just never noticed (even though child development records, video tape shows children who appear to be alert, interracting, following verbal commands, talking, pointing etc) - its then said that regression occurs at the age MMR vaccination is given anyway - be that 12 months, 16 months, 4.5 years, 12 years or 15 years - its just a coincidence. The rashes, high temperature, seizures, onset of dirroeah IBD, high pitched screaming vomiting - again, this has nothing to do with the vaccines. Again and again the inference is that we as parents (deveopmental tests carried out by medical practioners) all missed vital clues and our children were low functioning autistics all along. This aspect of "What Has Happened" is conveniently ignored in the bid to give vaccines a clean bill of health. ........... are you also saying that onset of epilepsy, arthritis, encaphalitis and chrons following MMR are also coincidence? You seem to have ignored these other conditions (which have had legal funding reinstated) in the bid to dismiss the link with autism. ...... I would ask if you as a mother believed something or someone had hurt your child what would you do? Would you not do everything you possibly could to get answers and help for your child. How would you feel about someone telling you what you saw happen to your child was completely wrong - I may miss some things but I know something terrible happened to my children! You are entitled to your opinion in the manipulation of autistic numbers. At ground level I can see an increase in children who are given diagnosis for autism. In my Street and the street off it alone there are 4 low functioning (diagnosed), 1 high functioning and 4 Aspergers (2 awaiting diagnosis). None of the parents have diagnosed AS or aspergers. Further local education authorites cannot meet demand for suitable educational placements for these children so they are put into unsuitable placements in mainstream schools resulting in further problems for the children. On Monday when I dropped my daughter to her mainstream school there was a 9 year old Aspergers boy sobbing, crying and vomiting whilst clinging to his mum because he is being bullied at school. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am aware of the problems that autists face and am trying,in my own way to do something about it. The National Austistic Society in the UK have published figures of 1 in 110 lowering to 1 in 86 children in primary school for prevalance of ASDs. http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=102&searchstr=figures I agree with you that there are alot of people making alot of money out of "autism" its a lucractive business. Some of those treatments are probably bogus if not harmful and I agree - I would want them to stop too. These treatments need to be fully regulated in order to protect families. I have no doubt that your adult AS child is wonderful and brave . I see qualities and strength in my own children. But I am very aware of their limitations and will do everything possible to give them the opportunity to live a full and productive life. ".... But you should rejoice that he can run. My child never has." I rejoice in the fact that I still have my son alive - others were not so lucky. As to MMR affecting a child's ability to walk, many of the MMR litigants have crippling juvenile arthritis and epilepsy. Severe seizures have resulted in brain damage that has rendered the children unable to walk and wheelchair bound needing 24 hours care and attention. These children continue to deteriorate. So yes I consider myself very lucky in that so far my son has not developed grand mal seizures. My daughter had problems with her balance and coordination at 4.5years old (pre-school boosters). She kept falling over which resulted in two A&E admissions because she hit her head. I am a vocal parent and I can say, hand on heart, that no one in our extended family has a diagnosis of autism or aspergers. If Simon Baron- Cohen theorises that familial history of depression is a factor then with 1-3 adults suffering a form of depression or anxiety in their life then surely autism should be even more common place or in fact ASDs should comprise one third of the population. Perhaps I am wrong, but I get the impression that you are of a mind that "unknown" environmental factors are also a factor in autism. One thing that has always confused me about this theory is that if it is something in the environment then why is it not affecting adults? Why is it just children and why do parents report regression following vaccination? I have never heard of anyone reporting regression following a child eating a cookie (containing baking soda cooked in aluminium bakeware). Yet I would not certainly not inject baking soda into my child. It is know that different routes of administration can determine the effect or toxicity of a substance. I have also heard of parents reporting regression following viral illness such as chicken pox. My children have been given a diagnosis of "autism" and they share many behaviours with children on the autistic spectrum - however I believe the correct terminology for my children is "Vaccine Damaged" but unfortunately this is not officially recognised - therefore they are diagnosed "autistic". It is difficult to determine my son's IQ as he has no speech. My daughter has speech but it is immature and she also has learning difficulties and a cognitive impairement of half her chronological age. This is clearly not Aspergers - I wish it was because at least they would stand a fighting chance of an independent life, having relationships possibly children of their own. The way things stand at the moment I cant see that happening - I can only hope for a miracle and hope that they prove me wrong. You are lucky in at least you have one "normal" son and hopefully he will bless you with grandchildren. I also hope your daughter will live a full and happy life - we know how truly special our kids are - whatever we suspect may have caused their problems. I am not writing my kids off but I am a realist, I am fully aware of the limitations they both have. Again I only hope they can prove me wrong and in order to do that they need all the help and answers they can get. Competing interests: 2 Children who regressed after having MMR vaccine
Science as the only evidence! 4 November 2004
Carol Johnston, Carer Carshalton, Surrey UK Send response to journal: Re: Science as the only evidence!	God forbid we all rely on the scientific evidence in a court of law. We as parents would all be charged with SBS, MSBP and/or child abuse. I find this blind faith in science extremely worrying, especially in light of recent high profile cases of parents accused of murdering their infants and the "unreliability" of the science used to convict them! If eye witness accounts are to be deemed inadmissable in a court then the prisons would be empty. Lets just hope Messrs Rumbold or Midgley never have to give an eye witness account - without their scientific security blanket they would be lost indeed! Competing interests: 2 Children who regressed following MMR vaccine
Single vaccines 4 November 2004
Dr John Rumbold, n/a West Midlands Send response to journal: Re: Single vaccines	It is worth noting that there is no evidence that single vaccines are safer than MMR. Certainly many of the single vaccines given by clinics were unlicensed and uneffective. Some parents who gave their children single vaccines have seen their children suffer mumps etc and have vowed not to give their other children single vaccines. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on 4 November 2004
Saadedine Tebbal, Laboratory Manager Texas, 77477 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for parents to move on	Ms. Clark, You say: “I must say, you are badly mistaken if you think my life is normal. If my life was "normal", I in no way could have received a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome, and that is not a joke”. Precisely, it is not a joke and I was just hoping that you, because of your past experience, would not allow all those kids to go through the same thing and would understand better than anybody the parents concerns. “"The state of Texas in law grants and acknowledges the right of parents to exempt their children from vaccination requirements for day care, school, and college for reasons of conscience including a religious belief or for medical reasons.” In paper yes, but in practice that is another story. Let me give you some examples: 1) A well know neurologist at Baylor College of Medicine and parent of an autistic kid whom I talked top during an autism conference – During his second baby birth, the doctors and nurses at Women’s Hospital wanted to force his baby to have the Hepatatis B vaccine even though he refused it. Guess what, he had to lock the nursery door in the hospital and call the police. It took a long time before they let him go with his baby unvaccinated. 2) An autistic kid who takes ABA therapy with my son was hospitalized with pneumonia. His mom told Children Hospital that she did not do all the vaccinations. Guess what, they wanted to inject 8 vaccines on him on-site even with the pneumonia. She had to call her husband to save the baby and herself. 3) My wife pregnant with the second baby asked before hand the staff and pediatrician not to vaccinate the baby with the Hepatatis B at birth because we had already an autistic kid and we were worried about the vaccines. They wanted to call the social services on us. So my wife delivered at home with the help of a midwife. My wife was harassed constantly before the delivery by the nurses and doctors telling her that she was playing with the life of the baby. As expected by us, the baby was born in the best of environment, extremely healthy and my wife was able to walk in her own home after the first hour as compared to her first delivery when it took her two days to recuperate. As for the other “scientific” comments you made they show that you communicate more with the so-called “expert” in autism from the medical establishment than with other parents. Try to listen to the other side of the story before making up your mind. Concerning regressive autism, Carol Johnston’s response to you explains everything. “CAN offered the Rapid Prompting Method of Soma Mukopadhayay as a cure for autism, and hyped it as even better than Lovaas' style Applied Behavioral Analysis. But for some reason they dropped Soma and her method. Perhaps because research shows that the methodology behind ABA and similar training is contrary to the best way to teach autistic children.” I saw the show on TV about Soma and her son. The way I understood that was that even with the worst ABA therapy (no training whatsoever on behavioral issues), she was able to teach her son to communicate. It might have been news for people who did not know about ABA therapy but not to many of us who saw our kids start talking again just after 2 weeks of ABA therapy. So just think what a good ABA therapist can do. “Marian Sigman from University California at Los Angeles, home of Dr. Lovaas, showed that autistic children learn best when they are not commanded to do things (3). No one is listening to the new data but they keep dredging up the ancient Lovaas study which is flawed and hasn't been replicated.” My wife and I went to a center doing Greenspan Method also called “Floor Time”. They had kids who were there for two years and they were still not interacting nor talking. Greenspan method is supposed to “follow the child’s lead and play at whatever captures his interest”. Marian Sigman theory is about the same basically letting the kids do whatever they want. If that theory was right why do we send our kids to school, they rather play with toys so we should follow their lead and not force them to learn. According to that method, I should let my son spin the wheels of the cars all the time and do the same with him. And I should see some results (Prozac for life). I don’t look at the data, I look at the kids taking a certain therapy and see how they behave. I also talk with other parents (real data). That will tell me how good is a therapy. Autism treatment is becoming a big market. There are a lot of charlatans out there taking advantage. Most of them are from the medical industry, they hate to see that autistic kids can get better without a doctor or psychiatrist or a drug. They want a share of a market that is unfortunately growing. Saadedine Tebbal, Ph.D. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic kid. Not part of any lawsuit.
Re: Re: a diversion on eye witness reliability 4 November 2004
John P Heptonstall, Director of the Morley Acupuncture Clinic and Complementary Therapy Centre Leeds LS27 8EG Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: a diversion on eye witness reliability	Sir I thank Midgley for his search suggestion. I dutifully loaded "criminal cases" eyewitness accounts considered less reliable than scientific evidence and had Midgley's 313 Google hits. I might have begun to believe there was something in his and Rumbold's statement had I not decided on a more scientific approach to searching...and loaded "criminal cases" eyewitness accounts considered more reliable than scientific evidence and had 284 Google hits. Not a bad rate of hits but a bit less than 313 so I tried "criminal cases" eyewitness accounts considered most reliable and had 323 Google hits. I wonder if Midgley and Rumbold can better that? I was particularly impressed by the first hit I read at http://www.prisoncentral.org/Prisoncentral/Suggestions%20for%20Change/Actual%2... of an article by Barry Scheck et al called "A short list of reforms to protect the innocent". They discuss and make suggestions to improve everything from "mistaken eyewitness identification" to "Forensic Fraud" and "Junk Science, Sloppy Science".... I already said every piece of evidence has to be judged on its merits wherever it comes from, there is no better or worse, just good admissible and and bad inadmissible. Regards John H. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Science as the only evidence! 4 November 2004
Dr John Rumbold, n/a West Midlands Send response to journal: Re: Re: Science as the only evidence!	Ms Johnston misunderstands what is meant by science. Science is dynamic. There is good science and there is bad science. One scientist's opinion does not necessarily consitute good science. Science is no more a security blanket than firm belief in the validity of personal experience. Ms Johnston should read Raymond Tallis' latest book "Hippocratic Oaths". Competing interests: None declared
Re: Single vaccines 4 November 2004
Peter Morrell, Hon Research Associate, History of Medicine Staffordshire University, UK Send response to journal: Re: Re: Single vaccines	Let me just get this straight, then, Dr Rumbold, when giving three separate vaccines instead of the one MMR, the kids are then getting three times the dose of poisonous mercury. Is that right? Thanks for clearing that one up. No wonder folks are running scared, and with good reason. Competing interests: None declared
tool-users 4 November 2004
Adrian k Midgley, GP Exeter EX1 2QS Send response to journal: Re: tool-users	Google is a good tool, but as with all tools it helps to know how it works. Most is a common word that will be found in .... most ... or at least many documents of reasonable length. Google pays a small amount of attention to the order of words in the search phrase, but absolutely does not parse them or understand the meaning of them as a phrase. As with the references given at the end of some scientific papers, the point is not to count them but to read them and understand them. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Single vaccines 5 November 2004
Dr John Rumbold, n/a West Midlands Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines	The problems allegedly related to MMR are largely felt to be because it contains live attenuated virus - but for this reason it does not contain thiomersal (this would prevent the vaccine working). I don't know about single vaccines however. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Single vaccines 5 November 2004
Peter J Flegg, Physician Blackpool, UK Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines	Peter Morrell is quite correct, three single measles vaccines will indeed give kids three times the dose of "poisonous mercury" they would otherwise recieve with a single dose of MMR vaccine. (They will also coincidentally get three times the dose of arsenic, U-235 and organophosphates). Three times nothing is still nothing! If "folks are running scared" it is primarily because of misinformation given out by the anti-vaccine lobby. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Science as the only evidence! 6 November 2004
Saadedine Tebbal, Laboratory Manager Texas, 77477 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Science as the only evidence!	Dr. Rumbold, Science is indeed dynamic. It means that you dont hang to a theory even if new data shows the theory is wrong. The best scientists are the ones who change their thinking constantly according to the new clinical data published (not according to epidemiological and statistical data that can be interpreted at will). Vaccines might have been thought to be safe but now there is enough clinical data published to show that they are detrimental to a lot of kids. There is no such a thing as good science and bad science. Science start with a set of observations (e.g. parents noticing their kids becoming autistic after MMR). Based on these observations, clinical research was supposed to be performed to show if there was a real link or not. Up to now, we have only so-called extensive "research" - epidemiological studies which dont have anything to do with reality or science. Saadedine Tebbal, Ph.D. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic kid
Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines 6 November 2004
Saadedine Tebbal, Laboratory Manager Texas, 77477 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines	Here we are again. Another example of doctors not knowing what they are talking about. All the parents know that MMR does not contain mercury and has never contained mercury. MMR contains live viruses and a lot of aluminum as adjuvent (increase the "efficacy" of the vaccine). Aluminum is known to be a catalyst for the deadly reaction of mercury with brain cells. MMR is injected in a baby that is already loaded with mercury from other vaccines. So that is one possible cause of autism. The live measles virus is the other possible cause since Measles virus has been found in a lot of autistic kids. The very reasonable solution suggested by parents was to just space the injection of vaccines enough for the baby to have enough time to get rid of the mercury and split the MMR into 3 separate non-mercury containing vaccines that will be injected separately within a 3 or 6 months period. What is so wrong about that. Does anybody out there have any good scientific reason why we should not wait until the babies grow their immune system before injecting vaccines or why we have to inject up to six vaccines at the same time. Why are we such in a hurry to vaccinate these babies if there is a huge danger of side effect. Most of us old people started vaccines at two and we had to have a maximum of four vaccine before we started school. Why is it that now, with all the advances in water treatment, sewage and better hygiene should we risk to hurt all the kids with up to 22 vaccines before age 2. I would love to hear about that. Please dont answer if your suggestion is about the cost of the vaccines or because you care so much about babies that you dont want them to be injected multiple times instead of one. I need a scientific answer. Saadedine Tebbal, Ph.D. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic kid
Great medical poisoners 6 November 2004
Peter Morrell, Hon Research Associate, History of Medicine Staffordshire University, UK Send response to journal: Re: Great medical poisoners	What learned doctors ought to be doing is explaining to people in this so -called evidence-based and scientific world what the various substances in vaccines are there for, who put them there and what exactly is the rationale behind their presence in vaccines in the first place? Then readers can evaluate for themselves the soundness of their answers. Unless they wish to be classed along with other great medical poisoners like Drs William Palmer and Harold Shipman, these heedless modern devotees of chemical medicine should frame their answers with this comment in mind... "Another not uncommon mistake arising from ignorance of chemistry was that, in prescriptions of two or more substances, each of which singly was known to produce a certain effect on the human body, the practitioner considered that by mixing them he would get the effect of each; whereas, if even a slight chemical change took place on admixture, the resulting compound or precipitate produced a totally different effect from any of the components, and was, consequently, injurious, if not fatal." [1] [1] Professor Sir William R Grove, Science and Medical Culture, Appleton’s Journal of Popular Literature, Science and Art, vol. 1, July 17, 1869, pages 503-4 Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines 6 November 2004
Dr John Rumbold, n/a West Midlands Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines	I take issue with two points 1) Doctors not knowing what they are talking about. Which medical doctor claimed MMR contained mercury? Please point this out for me. 2) "All the parents" know MMR does not contain mercury. My browsing of anti-vaccination messageboards has thrown uo many posts claiming MMR has mercury in it. Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines 8 November 2004
Saadedine Tebbal, Lab Manager Texas, 77477 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines	Dr. Rumbold, I was responding to Peter J Flegg Physician about MMR containing mercury. Now you have got one example of physician not knowing what he is talking about. As for web sites suggesting that MMR contains mercury. There are ignorants on both side of the issue. At least the non-physician side can say that they did not have the training to know that. How about the physicians?? Saadedine Tebbal, Ph.D. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic kid
ASD - AN IATROGENIC DISORDER 8 November 2004
Michael D Innis, Director Medisets International Home 4575A Send response to journal: Re: ASD - AN IATROGENIC DISORDER	Editor, “As long as medicine in general, and pharmaceuticals in particular, remain for-profit industries, it may be reasonably asked whether safety isn’t, at times, subservient to the bottom line.”[1] That was said in relation to Polio vaccine. The same bottom line probably hampers recognition of the fact that the MMR vaccine causes Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD). Fortunately Wakefield and his group have settled the matter in their most recent report[2]. .”The mucosal lesion consists of a pan-enteric lymphocytic infiltrate, with a variable degree of acute inflammation and eosinophil infiltration. Focal deposition of serum IgG from ASD children which co- localised with complement C1q on the asolateral enterocyte membrane—is suggestive that an autoimmune mechanism is involved in the pathology.” From their description it is clear that both a Type III and a Type IV Immune Response is induced in some children by the MMR vaccine. It may be some time before the full significance of this observation is acknowledged by the Establishment. To speed up the process perhaps the Medical Research Council could do Arthus Skin Tests and Delayed Hypersensitivity Skin tests on children who have been immunized with MMR. Predictably only the ASD children will show a positive reaction to one or both tests. With due respect to Lawyers and Judges they should heed what Andrew Wakefield and his co-authors are saying and what several parents have been saying for more than 10 years – AUTISTIC SPECTRUM DISORDER IS IATROGENIC. Michael D Innis FRCPA; FRCPath. .. Reference 1. Bookchin D; Schumacher J, The Virus and the Vaccine The True Story of A Cancer-Causing Monkey Virus, Contaminated Polio Vaccine, and Millions of Amerocams Exposed. p284 St Martins Press New York 2. PAUL ASHWOOD,1,5 ANDREW ANTHONY,2 FRANCO TORRENTE,1,3 and ANDREW J. WAKEFIELD4 Spontaneous Mucosal Lymphocyte Cytokine Profiles in Children with Autism and Gastrointestinal Symptoms: Mucosal Immune Activation and Reduced Counter Regulatory Interleukin-10 Journal of Clinical Immunology, Vol. 24, No. 6, November 2004 ( C_ 2004) Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines 9 November 2004
Peter J Flegg, Physician Blackpool, UK, FY3 8NR Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines	Perhaps you only see what you want to see? Read my response again, carefully, and you will see your error of assumption. It was Peter Morrell who talks about giving kids 3 times the amount of poisonous mercury with 3 single jabs as opposed to one MMR. Since I am well aware (unlike many anti-vaccinationists) that neither measles vaccine or MMR contains mercury , I merely agreed with him, stating three times NOTHING is still NOTHING. One problem with the eBMJ responses is that it is a bit like email - subtle ironies are lost. Perhaps we should request the availability of emoticons, or would that confuse some people even further? Competing interests: None declared
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines 9 November 2004
Graeme Johnston, Student MK7 6AA Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines	If Tebbal had got beyond the second line of Flegg's rapid response he'd see the phrase "three times nothing is still nothing". By "nothing", Flegg was referring to the mercury (and arsenic etc) content of the MMR and the measles vaccines. Competing interests: None declared
Re: ASD - AN IATROGENIC DISORDER 9 November 2004
John Stone, none London N22 Send response to journal: Re: Re: ASD - AN IATROGENIC DISORDER	It would demonstrate completely unwarranted academic bias if BMJ were not to print a neutral news report of the Ashwood paper in the next issue. I have personally dismantled in Rapid Responses every single outstanding claim which has been made against the personal integrity of Andrew Wakefield, and no one has attempted to contradict me on the history even if the science remains in dispute [1]. Even David Elliman and Helen Bedford, arch-opponents of Dr Wakefield's views, acknowledge in their most recent article that the allegations are unfounded [2]. You have to ask why they were ever made. In present circumstances there is absolutely no reason why only Dr Wakefield's accusers should be given the benefit of the doubt. I believe the BMJ has an ethical duty to make the wider medical profession and public aware of this research. [1] Successive postings in my name under Joanna Lyall, 'Editor in the eye of a storm' (28 February 2004): http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/328/7438/528 and David Elliman and Helen Bedford book review (30 October 2004)'MMR science and fiction - exploring the vaccine crisis and MMR and Autism - what parents need to know': http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/329/7473/1049 [2] Elliman and Bedford op.cit.: http.//bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/contents/full/329/7473/1049 Competing interests: Parent of an autistic child
Running scared 10 November 2004
Mark Struthers, General Practitioner Bedfordshire, UK. mark.struthers@which.net Send response to journal: Re: Running scared	Measles, measles and thrice measles. Peter Flegg (Re: Re: Single vaccines 5 November) presumably feels smug satisfaction in finally getting one over Peter Morrell – who I rather suspect is agnostic about vaccines and the balance of good and harm they cause. However, I find it disappointing when members of the professional pro-vaccine lobby give out their information in a lazy and confusing manner. This may have the unfortunate effect of pushing the fence sitter – professional or otherwise – into the opposing ‘anti-vaccinationist’ camp. Peter Flegg (Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines 9 November) should be aware that pearls of medical wisdom are transmitted to an international audience through the BMJ - and some of those on to whom these pearls do drop may not be attuned to the scholarly irony and sarcasm of the fine British physician. The MMR does not contain thiomersal and never has. Presumably then, the ‘poisonous mercury’ content of imported single antigen, measles, mumps and rubella is not relevant in the aetiology of autism - even if in the primary immunisation of the infant, it may be. Why didn’t Peter Flegg say that? Careless talk affects lives and I’m running scared folks! I am however, enormously encouraged by the recent work that has (surprisingly) come out of Austin, Texas (with the help of Briton, Andrew Wakefield) on the link between MMR and autistic spectrum disorder (ASD). We will presumably have to wait for the definite link of ASDs with ‘poisonous mercury’. Like Saadedine Tebbal, I expect there will be one – even if it isn’t through the MMR. This is only an assumption of course. Please read this carefully or make the error of only seeing what you want to see. And of course, I hope that doesn’t confuse people even further. Competing interests: Suffer from BvDS (Bush-victory depression syndrome) and suffering caused by pro-vaccine lobby as much in Texas as anywhere else.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines 10 November 2004
Saadedine Tebbal, Laboratory Manager Texas, 77477 Send response to journal: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Single vaccines	Dr. Fleg, I apologize for my error. By the time I clicked to send a rapid response I got a new window and I forgot which one I was responding to. Too much mercury in my brain??? Saadedine Tebbal, Ph.D. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic kid
Observer report: "MMR Parents win legal victory" 26 December 2004
John Stone, none London N22 Send response to journal: Re: Observer report: "MMR Parents win legal victory"	A report in the Observer newspaper today by Jamie Doward (26 December 2004) suggests that the Legal Services Commission is set to re-instate funding in up to a hundred cases of MMR vaccine damage. Doward writes: "In March, the LSC ruled that there was insufficient evidence for families to have a reasonable prospect of success in court. Following the ruling drug companies' legal team indicated they would press for costs if parents continued with their claims. The majority of parents dropped their legal challenge out of fear of bankrupting themselves. "At the time the decision to pull legal aid was described by [Justice] Keith as "hardly an advertisement for access to justice". He subsequently introduced a "costs amnesty" which temporarily barred the drugs companies from seeking money from parents and gave them until 22 October to decide whether to pursue their claims. The deadline was later extended to 21 December. "Now the Observer has learnt that, last Monday, Keith wrote to the families' legal teams, extending the deadline again again, until 28 February. As a result of the extension, it is expected that the LSC will be writing to up to 100 families notifying them of its plans to re-instate legal aid certificates within the next couple of months". http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1379771,00.html We now confront the anomalous LSC decision that families will be excluded from seeking redress if their child has autistic symptoms. Competing interests: Parent of an autistic child