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Rapid Responses: Rapid Responses published:
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Proof is of the essence
- Kenneth Campbell (8 October 2004)
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Proof? What proof?
- Hilary Butler (9 October 2004)
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Proof, what proof?
- Sam Richmond (10 October 2004)
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Re: Proof is of the essence
- Peter Morrell (10 October 2004)
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Re: Proof? What proof?
- Kenneth Campbell (13 October 2004)
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Re: Re: Proof? What proof?
- John P Heptonstall (14 October 2004)
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Re: Re: Re: Proof? What proof?
- Kenneth Campbell (15 October 2004)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Proof? What proof?
- John P Heptonstall (16 October 2004)
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Why Not Investigate?
- Allan Withnell (17 October 2004)
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Kenneth Campbell, Clinical Information Officer (posted in private capacity) Leukaemia Research Fund, WC1N 3JJ
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The only relevant phrase in Bobby Potter's letter comes in his last sentence - "Patients with cancer hang on to Baum's every statement—he should respect the work of others who can prove their findings." Professor Baum, and other practitioners of scientific medicine, have no problem respecting the work of others who CAN prove their findings. They do not, however, regard anecdotes as proof. If, and when, Bobby Potter's father produces convincing scientiifc evidence of his theories, and of any remedies based on these theories, he will be expected to publish these for the scrutiny of other scientists and practitioners. They will either meet or fail objective standards of proof and will be dealt with accordingly. As an aside, those who claim accreditation for ayurvedic medicine, traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), etcetera on the grounds of great antiquity presumably argue on the same grounds that long-standing belief in dragons and demons dictates that these should be incorporated into scientific world models. Perhaps those who argue merit from antiquity could tell us how infant mortality rates or survival from infectious diseases or capacity to prevent and treat parasitic diseases improved over the thousands of years of ayurveda or TCM compared with the 200 years of scientific medicine. For my part, I would rather trust the upstart infant of modern medicine than the superstition ridden ancient of "traditional" medicine. Competing interests: None declared |
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Hilary Butler, freelance journalist home 1892, New Zealand.
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I am aghast at Kenneth Campbell's statement as follows: [quote]Perhaps those who argue merit from antiquity could tell us how infant mortality rates or survival from infectious diseases or capacity to prevent and treat parasitic diseases improved over the thousands of years of ayurveda or TCM compared with the 200 years of scientific medicine. [/quote] That he could put the improvement in infant mortality rate, or survival from infectious diseases, or prevention and treatment of parasitic diseases at the door of 200 years of scientific medicine is astounding. Infant Mortality. I have in front of me, all the information for this from New Zealand, and can assure Kenneth Campbell, that the greatest decrease in infant mortality was DIRECTLY as a result of public sanitation, which anyone who knows their medical history, knows was NOT at the behest of medical people. After that the reduction was very slow and sustained, and most likely due to multiple influences, not JUST western medicine. Infectious diseases. I take it Kenneth Campbell has not read the medical articles written by John and Sonia McKinley on this subject, or studied the raw data for himself, for again, he will see that MOST infectious diseases vastly declined before either antibiotics or the use of vaccines. For similar reasons to that of infant mortality. And that also applies to diseases like Tetanus as well. As to parasitic diseases, well, that is more complication. But I have had parasites myself, and did very well using a natural combination of herbs which did not come from a prescription pad. Lastly, my family tree goes back to 1520, so I went off and checked it this evening. I would like to point out to Kenneth Campbell, that the largest grouping of devastation to our family tree occurred over a period, when my adult ancestors were stupid enough to trust doctors who wouldn't listen to Semmelweiss and wash their hands, hence an inordinately huge loss of both mothers and babies. The desecration this long period inflicted on my family tree was ten times greater than all the wars in the last 300 years, and more than thirty times greater than all diseases combined for which there are now vaccines. And given that the figures for preventable medical errors, iatrogenic and nosocomial infections, and other doctor based problems are now the third highest cause of mortality from western medicine, in the western world, I really don't think Kenneth Campbell should be so scathing of either tradition chinese medicine, or ayurvedic medicine, which as far as I know, have nothing nearly so dangerous or so toxic to offer as Kenneth Campbell's prescription pad. Modern Medicine has its place in my life, albeit limited. But its "drawbacks" are also so potentially significant for the population at large, that it would seem unwise for pharmaceutical based medicine to point the finger anywhere else, when both now, and historically, that means pointing at least three fingers right back at themselves. He who hath no sin, cast the first stone. Hilary Butler. Competing interests: None declared |
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Sam Richmond, Neonatologist Sunderland Royal Hospital, SR4 7TP UK
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I would be fascinated to hear how Hilary Butler explains the fact that smallpox has vanished from the face of the earth and that polio is, hopefully, about to do the same without invoking the contribution of vaccination. Competing interests: None declared |
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Peter Morrell, Hon Research Associate, History of Medicine Staffordshire University, UK
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If Campbell's case is as scientific as he claims, then he will have little difficulty marshalling and presenting those mountains of proof that convince him that [a] allopathic medicine is a rational science and [b] that CAM is not. Any of his further pronouncements on this matter can then be rightly assessed. Competing interests: None declared |
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Kenneth Campbell, Clinical Information Officer (posted in private capacity) Leukaemia Research Fund, WC1N 3JJ
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Hilary Butler need fear nothing from my "prescription pad", since I am not a medical practitioner. I do have a MSc in Clinical Oncology, I am a state registered biomedical scientist and I do have around 25 years of experience in one form or another of the professions ancillary to medicine. In order to obtain my MSc I was required to undertake a detailed study of the epidemiology and biology of cancer; this is not a trivial undertaking and it is precisely because science is hard work that many people prefer not to make the effort. As regards the contribution of sanitation to improvements in infant, and adult mortality, is Hilary Butler unaware that the key impetus for improved sanitation was the emergence of the germ theory of infection. This SCIENTIFIC theory replaced the various UNSCIENTIFIC concepts such as miasmas which had held sway for centuries. Ms Butler asserts that improved sanitation was not at the behest of medical people - presumably she has expunged Snow's pioneering epidemiology work on Cholera from her mind, or the fact that Virchow, now known as the father of pathology, was famous in his own time as an advocate of public health measures. The fact is that TCM and Ayurvedic medicine, in the thousands of years over which they held full reign, completely failed to recognize the existence of infectious organisms and, as a consequence, failed to develop or promote public health measures which would have reduced the risk of infections. Introduction of effective sanitation in India, in China and in many other regions of the world followed the arrival of scientific medicine with its recognition of the existence and significance of germs. It was scientific study of the life-cycle of the malarial parasite which led to measures to eliminate breeding sites for malaria carrying mosquitoes, it was scientific study of transmission of yellow fever which allowed protection against this dread disease (again mosquito-borne) even before the causative organism had been identified. Semmelweiss, who Ms Butler rightly lauds, was a medical doctor, not an alternative practitioner. Lister, Pasteur, Koch, Jenner - all scientific practitioners who one would today expect to be found today standing shoulder to shoulder with Michael Baum rather than with Prince Charles. As to Peter Morrell's challenge, the crucial difference between allopathic medicine and CAM is that the former is one component within science and its finding, theories and hypotheses are expected to justify themselves within that framework. When an element of conventional medicine is found to conflict with high quality evidence it is discarded and a new theory or practice is introduced. An example is the replacement of the idea of an atmospheric "influence" as a cause of influenza with the discovery of the flu virus and the recognition that this is the true cause. Most, if not all, forms of CAM are belief systems; acupuncture is claimed to work on the basis of meridian lines which have no known physical counterparts and relies on the balancing of ying and yang, again entities for which there is no physical evidence. Reflexology claims that portions of the hands and feet influence remote areas of the body, even though no physical evidence of such interactions has ever been adduced. It is a characteristic of belief systems, whether they be religions, or non- scientific concepts of healing that they have no mechanism for testing their claims and for replacing central tenets if they conflict with objective evidence. Homeopathy relies on claims that water molecules, out of all the dilute substances present during potentiation (dilution), will interact only with those which the homeopath desires them to do. All of these claims are totally unscientific and irrational. CAM makes very extravagant claims for efficacy in the absence of verifiable mechanisms of action. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Competing interests: None declared |
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John P Heptonstall, Director of the Morley Acupuncture Clinic and Complementary Therapy Centre Leeds LS27 8EG
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Sir A few of points in response:- Kenneth Campbell is describing/distorting paradigm variations, not good and bad science. Many people cleaned their hands and homes long before Snow or Virchow taught medics to do the same. TCM recognised infectious organisms according to its own model, and dealt with them more than adequately for thousands of years - as did our own Culpeper hundreds of years - before medics caught up. They did this without electron microscopy or PCR. The germ theory is still controversial. I suspect Michael Baum would think twice before standing shoulder to shoulder with the man, Jenner, who was probably responsible for the dramatic spread of smallpox throughout the UK and globe until the 4th horseman thankfully retreated. TCM treated malaria successfully for thousands of years, before medics found the bug and learned the art of treating malaria from cinchona bark of TCM; it is anti-malarial artemesia annua that the Chinese have used that long time that excels above most medical interventions even now. Meridian lines are well understood and readily scientifically locatable, read any Chinese scientific text on them for typical characteristics. All medicines are subjective 'belief systems' and 'make extravagant claims for efficacy in the absence of verifiable mechanisms of action' - didn't Campbell know that? Regards John H. Competing interests: I am a practitioner of TCM acupuncture & moxibustion |
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Kenneth Campbell, Clinical Information Officer (posted in private capacity) Leukaemia Research Fund, WC1N 3JJ
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John Heptonstall suggests that TCM recognises infectious organisms according to its own model. I have visited a number of TCM sites and the most consistent feature is reference to the Five Elements or Five Sites system. This maintains that the key organs are the liver, kidney, heart, spleen and lungs. Apparently, neither the nervous nor endocrine systems exist, or at least they play no significant role in regulating body function. Crucially important to Heptonstall's assertion, the immune system apparently does not even exist within TCM anatomy and physiology; we are apparently invited instead to believe in meridian lines (which are so readily "scientifically locatable" that TCM writers apparently cannot agree whether there are 12 or 14) and in Yin and Yang for which even Heptonstall does not claim physical evidence. Heptonstall blames Jenner for the spread of Smallpox throughout the UK and the globe - a truly remarkable achievement given evidence from mummies that the disease is at least 3000 years old and that it was endemic and devastating in England throughout the 17th Century - before Jenner was even born! Perhaps a few quotes from TCM web sites on causes and therapy of lymphoma might help readers decide on their preferences: AETIOLOGY In terms of pathogenesis, externally, lymphoma may be due to wind and heat drying the blood and congealing fluids into phlegm (where wind simply means an invisible pathogen). Internally, it is due to damage by the Seven Effects and overtaxation, leading to the engenderment of phlegm dampness. Bob Flaws, Dipl.Ac., CH, FNAAOM, FRCHM (http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/chinmedmally.html) TREATMENT 6. Blood stasis Principle of treatment: Promote blood circulation to remove blood stasis. Formula of choice: Infradiaphragmatic Stasis-Expelling Decoction, in which tangkuei, ligusticum root, peony root, peach kernel, carthamus flower, flying squirrel's droppings, moutan bark promote blood circulation to remove blood stasis, and cyperus root, bitter orange, lindera root and corydalis tuber regulate qi to alleviate pain. From the website of "the Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) International Service Complex located in Huaihua city, Hunan province, in Mid-Southern China." (http://www.tcmtreatment.com/images/diseases/cancer.htm) Were I to be diagnosed with NHL I think I would prefer CHOP +/- Rituximab to a concoction of squirrel shit and plant extracts of unknown consistency and/or potency. Heptonstall makes the favourite claim of post-modernists that all knowledge consists of belief systems and that we cannot accord scientific theories any greater respect than quasi-religious belief systems. I could not possibly improve on the late Isaac Asimov's rebuttal of such nonsense: (With reference to a correspondent) The young specialist in English Lit, ...lectured me severely on the fact that in every century people have thought they understood the Universe at last, and in every century they were proved to be wrong. It follows that the one thing we can say about our modern "knowledge" is that it is wrong. ... My answer to him was, "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov,The Relativity of Wrong, Kensington Books, New York, 1996, p 226. (http://naturalscience.com/dsqhome.html) GK Chesterton famously stated that, "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything." The same seems to be true of many who reject science - it is a commonplace to see centres offering CAM therapies listing reflexology, kinesiology, iridology, homeopathy and myriad other therapies which have different theories on causation and therapy of disease and share only their lack of a scientific underpinning. Those who argue for antiquity as proof of validity conveniently ignore the fact that Western medicine has a millenia old history. The key difference is that Western medicine has matured, developed and integrated with other sciences over that time; in contrast traditional practices such as Ayurveda and TCM have not moved on from the days when maps declared "here be dragons" and when people believed implicitly in witchraft and spirit creatures, benign and malignant. Reversing the usual cliches Western medicine should be seen as having acquired wisdom over the millenia - discarding theories which are either unsupported by evidence or in direct contradiction of observed phenomena; traditional medicine systems in contrast are like 2000 year-old infants, they have clung stubbornly to their unscientific, faith-based world models, discarded nothing and learned nothing. In closing, I would add that this futile attempt to bring enlightenment to those who do not desire it has consumed quite enough of my time; time which I deem to be better used in appreciation of the wonders constantly being revealed by scientific study of human function in health and disease. I shall be making no further responses to this thread; I have no doubt that those who have attacked my views will accuse me of being "frit". I respond with one final quotation - being attacked by them is like being savaged by a dead sheep - orginally said by Dennis Healey of Geoffrey Howe. Competing interests: None declared |
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John P Heptonstall, Director of The Morley Acupuncture Clinic and Complementary Therapy Centre Leeds LS27 8EG
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Sir I hope Kenneth Campbell enjoyed studying ‘sites of TCM’; did they include Beijing or Shanghai Medical Universities or perhaps those of HangZhou or Nanjing, or maybe the fount of TCM the Beijing Academy from where some of China’s top research pharmacologists graduate? TCM does indeed recognise the nervous and endocrine systems, they are 2 of the 4 'equilibria' of TCM, the others are circulatory and meridian systems - Western Medicine has yet to locate the latter. The immune system is denoted, without getting too technical for Kenneth, to some extent through the concept of defensive Qi (eg, Wei Qi) that permeates every aspect of the body. One can regulate and enhance aspects of immunity through the manipulation of acupoints by TCM modalities, not least acupuncture & moxibustion. For example, Sp6 can increase white cell count within minutes of stimulation, the effect lasting for days; LI4 and S36 increase phagocytic activity, etc. TCM writers are aware of 12 main meridians/channels (bilateral), relating to 12 organs of TCM (L, LI, S, Sp, H, SI, LIV, GB, P, TE, K, UB), and 2 vessels GV and CV (single channels running up rear and front centre lines to meet at face). People often refer to 14 meridians or channels, the GV and CV have superficial appearance of meridian/channels, but technically the latter 2 are ‘vessels’. There is no conjecture, only ‘colloquialisms’ and everyone is aware of the meaning – some aspects of these shown via computerised infra-red radiant tracer are at my www.mac- tcm.demon.co.uk. Yin and Yang refers to the duality of nature - particle/wave, electron/proton, Sun/Moon, male/female, day/night, sympathetic/parasympathetic, acid/alkali - is that concept so difficult to grasp, or is it the Chinese language that so confounds Kenneth? Jenner devised a 'vaccine' which caused havoc and devastation as it spread smallpox around the UK and globe; I never said he invented smallpox, but he certainly encouraged it more than a little... On the aetiology of lymphoma I applaud Kenneth’s spelling. To assist a little further with translation; ‘wind’ diseases tend to 'viral'-like illness (perhaps as nebulous a noun) and are generally more treatable by TCM than with Western medicine (eg. ME/CFS, common cold, flu, MS, polio), plus certain bacterial and parasitic forms of disease, and certain climatic (eg. fluctuating magnetic fields whether of macro- or microclimate) conditions; heat symptoms tend to inflammatory or infectious disorders that introduce pyrogenic factors. Certainly ‘wind' pathogen may be as invisible as any virus but markers exists that are clearly visible with modern equipment just as are some viruses. Blood stasis generally refers to coagulation, impeded flow, and circulatory conditions, and can lead to more serious problems including certain cancers. Promoting blood circulation clears stasis - I note Flaws does not use needles and moxa as I, and I am not a TCM herbalist, also he does not mention quinine sulphate as he’s a TCM practitioner, so he uses whole herbs that retain synergism that is lost with WM drugs. The prescription contains many substances that ‘remove stasis’ and regulate body, mind and spirit in the process. I'm sure if Kenneth were to study a TCM pharmacopoeia for active ingredients of the remedies cited he would identify all kinds of wonderful statis removers/circulatory stimulants some of which are common to Western medicine - let's face it many new drugs probably originate from those ages old TCM ingredients. Where did quinine originate - TCM’s cinchona bark? As for squirrel shit, I don’t remember coming across that ingredient Kenneth but am assured that foxes thrive on it and one rarely sees an unhealthy fox or squirrel. I’m not sure how Asimov rebutted ‘scientific theories being quasi- religious belief systems’ from the quote given….he also said “things called stars appeared, which robbed men of their souls and left them unreasoning brutes, so that they destroyed the civilisation they themselves had built up”. Could he have been predicting the 20th Century and modern medicine’s penchant for creating vast swathes of death and destruction through the application of science? Of course he was a science fiction writer. Perhaps GK Chesterton’s perception of God and people was affected by his conversion to Catholicism. I don’t think he was referring to their belief in science. He did say “The modern world…has no notion except that of simplifying something by destroying nearly everything” and he may have been speaking of meridians when he said “there is a road from the eye to the heart which does not go through the intellect” and eventually he admitted “ the word orthodoxy not only no longer means being right; it practically means being wrong”…so perceptive and at a time when Jenner’s vaccine was running rampant around Britain and the masses were fighting mandatory immunisation. I would be interesting in Kenneth’s explanation of ‘the millennium of Western Medicine’ and would point out that not only TCM and Ayurveda have survived out of antiquity, but people still believe implicitly in witchcraft and spirit creatures, benign and malignant, not least Catholics many of whom practice WM; and I have a map which declares there be dragons at Komodo. Kenneth has used the same tired old inaccurate arguments against CAMs that from time to time litter the pages of the eBMJ and remind us there is nothing new under the sun, only new people repeating the old mantra like advertising on a revolving door. I thank Kenneth for the enlightenment he so openly gave. I had suspected him ignorant in all matters CAM, I now know he is. Kind regards John H. Competing interests: Practitioner of TCM acupuncture & moxibustioon |
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Allan Withnell, Retired Area Medical Officer Compton Court, Redmarley, Gloucester. GL19 3JB
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In the criticisms of The Prince in calling for investigation into the Gerson Therapy(1) no mention has been made of the fact that the American Medical Association carried out investigations on five separate occasions but has refused to publish the findings(2). I have asked the Medical Research Council to investigate but so far without success. Dr Gerson wrote scores of papers in peer-reviewed European medical journals and his seminal work was, A Cancer Therapy: Results of Fifty Cases(3). Most of his cures were with patients whose doctors had said that nothing more could be done. It seems unscientific to condemn without investigation when the claims are made by a doctor with such credentials. Futher information is available on www.Gersoon.org One of the famous people he treated was the Nobel Laureate, Albert Schweitzer who said, "I see in Dr Max Gerson one of the most eminent geniuses in the history of medicine". 1. The Prince and the Professor. BMJ. 2004;329:857-859. 2. Straus H, Marinacci B. Dr Max Gerson - Healing the Hopeless. 2002. Quarry Press Inc., Ontario. Canada. 3. Gerson M. A Cancer Therapy: Results of Fifty Cases. 1958, 1999. The Gerson Institute, PO Box 430, Bonita, CA, USA. Competing interests: None declared |
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