Rapid Responses to:
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Rapid Responses: Rapid Responses published:
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Stop the Suffering
- S. Tawqeer Rashid (11 April 2003)
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War is not the answer
- Hyman Davies (11 April 2003)
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ARE WE LEGITIMISING TERRORISM
- mohammed shamim absar (12 April 2003)
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Medical involvement in torture
- Gurli Bagnall (12 April 2003)
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Shame on Western Democracy
- Muheez Alani Durosinmi (14 April 2003)
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Human rights for the victims of terror
- A.J Shyam Kumar (14 April 2003)
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Can this be happening
- Rashan Haniffa, None (14 April 2003)
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Advocacy of Torture not surprising
- Ian J Goodwin (15 April 2003)
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Both sides of the argument must be considered
- William Carey (16 April 2003)
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Re: Both sides of the argument must be considered
- Mark Struthers (16 April 2003)
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Freedom of Speech
- Babar B Chaudhri (16 April 2003)
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The dangers in making heros of terrorists
- Richard G Fiddian-Green (16 April 2003)
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?Time to think
- Anne Savage (19 April 2003)
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Anti-torture is not anti American (or anti Israel)
- Tom Marshall, B15 2TT (21 April 2003)
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Shock
- Kim A. James, Northants NN29 7 SL (22 April 2003)
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Power Doctrine
- Siroos Mirzaei, Peter Knoll (22 April 2003)
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Re: Anti-torture is not anti American (or anti Israel)
- William Carey (28 April 2003)
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Medical involvement in torture,psychiatric aspects
- Detlef Degner (29 April 2003)
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Horrified
- hazel m hawker (30 April 2003)
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S. Tawqeer Rashid, Research Fellow University College London. NW3
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Sir I would like to fully endorse the views of Derek Summerfield BMJ 2003; 326: 773-774. As physicians, we can all recall the anguish we suffer in trying to protect our patients from an ounce of pain. My first post after registration was as a Casualty Doctor where the term "Duty of Care" was emphasized. Here, I was instructed that our (Western) society determines that the optimum care be offered to even those we knew had committed unspeakable crimes. Why, then I ask is it that our noble civilisation has started to compete with those we regarded beneath us. We seem to be copying the tactics of despots, tyrants and dictators who we previously cursed. The UK faced the terror of the IRA, who on Oct 12th 1984 almost wiped out our elected British Cabinet at The Grand Hotel, Brighton. Yet never did we contemplate what is being spoken about for the alleged terrorists from the Far and Middle East. Furthermore, in Guantanomo Bay people remain incarcerated for over eighteen months now, without trial or legal recourse. This is a black mark on the US and their allies - doubly so when 19 detainees were released on March 24 2003 after their innocence was acknowledged! Currently nine British Citizens remain in this legal quagmire, with their government inclined to do precious little on their behalf. Most people rejected Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilisations[1] between the Islamic and Western World when it was first published. However, if Slobodan Milosevic is offered a trial in the Hague War Crimes Tribunal for his acts of genocide, why not those in Guantanoma Bay? One can conclude that peoples of different religions are being treated with different standards. Regrettably this is gaining credence amongst muslims the world over and is a great recruiting cry for the extremists of Al-Qaeda. It is thereforere imperative that all people, especially those who deal with the horror of pain in others, insist that our political leaders stop the suffering now. [1] The clash of civilizations and the remaking of world order / Samuel P. Huntington. New York : Free Press, 2002. Competing interests: None declared |
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Hyman Davies, retired general practitioner n/a
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Congratulations to Derek Summerfield and the BMJ for alerting us to our responsibilities as doctors. The invasion of Iraq by ourselves and the United States in the face of fierce opposition by the United Nations is a natural sequence to the toleration of torture and the gross violation of human rights of which our governments are guilty. The dangerous consequences of the Iraqi war will haunt the world for decades to come. Nor is Iraq the last on the list of President Bush's states to be "dealt with". We, in the Medical Action for Global Security seek to alert our fellow citizens to the crimes of modern warfare with its devastating effects on life and the environment, and the stark possibility of its escalation to nuclear annihilation. Competing interests: I belong to Medical Action for Global Security, which is affiliated to International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War. |
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mohammed shamim absar, spr general surgery trafford general hospital,manchester
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Dear editor, This was a very interesting and well timed article.It has been a week of mixed emotions and there were moments when millions of people including me cried on seeing innocent children dying and in pain and at other times rejoiced to see the end of Saddam's tyrant regime. Thousands of people on both sides of the war have suffered and probably are still suffering at the hand of people who justify terrororising people innocent and non innocent hand in glove with some members of the medical profession without whose help it is not at all possible to conduct such torures. It is shameful that somebody who has taken the Hippocrate's oath should be involved in torturing.These are moments which make us think about the shameful changes the profession has undergone ,no wonder we don't get the respect as in the good bygone years from the general public. Competing interests: None declared |
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Gurli Bagnall, Patients' Rights Campaigner Independent
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I doubt anyone would argue with Derek Summerfield’s editorial but the medical profession must also put it’s own house in order. Psychiatric-pharmacological and psychological techniques “are used often because they leave no visible evidence….; torture today must be impossible to prove, which would not be possible without medical skills…. “A glance at the historical involvement of doctors….shows that medical complicity in torture has a long tradition, and is still active.” (1) Reference: 1. “History of medical involvement in torture - then and now” Giovanni Malo. The Lancet Vol 357; May 19, 2001 Competing interests: None declared |
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Muheez Alani Durosinmi, Professor of Haematology 324
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I should congratulate Derek Summerfield for his courage writing this challenging article on 'Fighting "terrorism" with torture'. He is indeed a rational thinking medical practitioner. It amazes a majority of us folks in the so called developing countries that the highly 'civilised' and 'cultured' people could be so despicable in dealing with the others. It is a shame on Western Values. We remember this Evil Empire was the first to kill Human Beings with Atomic Bombs in the forties, because they were not Americans. We now understand why the American Governments have always supported the very repressive Racist Government of Apartheid Israel. You remember Israel is one country that has never obeyed any of the United Nations Motions. Yet it has always been rewarded with American Dollars for this. By the thinking of the Leadership of this EVIL Empire, its citizens can commit any War Crime Any Where In the World, but such must never be punished! What a Warped Thinking. Thanks Dr. MA Durosinmi
Competing interests: None declared |
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A.J Shyam Kumar, Registrar in Orthopaedics,, Selly Oak hospital,BIRMINGHAM,B29 6JD
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I read this article with great interest which is a reflection of the current global events. I do agree with the author that the terrorist accussed should be given full human rights once they are behind bars. But there seems to be a growing trend by human rights organisations and activists to show much more activism against human rights violations against terrorists. It is surprising to see the silence of these activists during public debates about the victims of terrorism. Hapless women and children are murdered every day in many parts of the world by these ruthless people fired by their political and religous agendas. With their actions they have displayed to the world that they do not care for any human rights at all and I feel that the world should not clamour for their rights although it will catch the newspaper headlines. 'Those who take the sword, die by the sword'. Competing interests: None declared |
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Rashan Haniffa, Pre Intern Faculty of Medicine, University of Colombo, Sri Lanka, None
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Reading the article on terrorism and torture I am reminded of an article in the online version of Britain's Daily Telegraph in January this year. Discussing the same topic the author lucidly analyses the issues facing the "Developed world" as they face up to the "new" threat of terrorism. The new thinking of America seems to be that the “ends justify the means” and not the other way around. As senior intelligence officials were quoted as saying “if I thought the man I am interrogating had the knowledge of the so called “ticking bomb” then who really cares about how we get it out of him”. The withholding of medical attention from those injured in their capture is calmly justified as the “use of physical pressure”. The use of allied Governments notorious for their methods of torture is seen as a means of circumventing the American legal system with the excuse “though we are using the product of such interrogation US officers were not present at the site” All this, it has to be remembered on individuals who have not been convicted or not even indicted or prosecuted in any court of law. One has to assume that “presumed innocent until found guilty does not apply to them”. Consider the case of the Pakistani man who was held in Cuba for many months and later released without explanation. The headline in his story was “they didn’t even say sorry”. These actions are accepted in a country where there is debate of suspending capital punishment due to the execution of some individuals who are now thought to have been mistakenly convicted. All that can be said here is that at least they had the “opportunity” of a conviction. The so called “combatants” of Afghanistan or indeed the terror suspects arrested in third countries like Pakistan do not even have the basic right of meeting a lawyer, knowing why they are being held or what charges are being framed against them. They are in effect legal “non entities” It is strange that in the twenty first century the world is arguing regarding the legal and moral justification of torture. It may have been thought that the matter was settled a long time ago. By resorting to combat the “terrorists” in the same manner they fight us removes any justification we have in fighting them as it is “the means” they use which is questionable and the ends apparently justifiable. Can this really be happening to us? Competing interests: None declared |
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Ian J Goodwin, Consultant Psychiatrist Regional Forensic Services,Auckland, New Zealand
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Dear Sir, Derek Summerfield's well argued points on the repugnance of torture are timely.However the emerging advocacy of torture within the USA should not come as a surprise when considered alongside that nation's enthusiasm for executing its most disadvantaged citizens. The continued application of the death penalty to mentally ill and intellectually disabled offenders also breaches most international agreements on human rights, as well as numerous principles of international jurisprudence. In the same way that torture tends to target the poor or those marginalised by society, the death penalty within the United States is often applied to those who cannot speak adequately for themselves. Within a society that tacitly or otherwise condones such behaviour, it is inevitable that certain people or groups of people are seen as being undeserving of basic human rights.Under these conditions the notion that the ends justifies the means dominates any discourse involving ethical considerations and torture becomes acceptable. Those who advocate the use of torture to obtain information from Al-Qaeda suspects are simply articulating an attitude supported by domestic practices and policies.The challenge for the rest of the world is to point out how out of step such attitudes are with basic humanistic values. Competing interests: None declared |
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William Carey, Clinical Pharmacologist Hammersmith Medicines Research, Park Royal, London NW10 7NS, UK.
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Editor, Derek Summerfield’s editorial is not balanced. It is merely another BMJ anti-American/Israeli diatribe lacking any significant objectivity. Even when he mentions the torture practised by Saddam’s Hussein’s regime (extensive, and targeted against many innocent Iraqis), it was couched in terms of that too being America’s fault through sales of arms. But let us pursue some evidenced-based politics. Between 1973-91 the US exported $5m worth of weapons to Iraq, the UK $330m; in comparison Germany sold $995m, China $5,500m, France $9,240m and Russia $31,800m [1]. In case Dr Summerfield dismisses those figures as coming from a US institute, the figures from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute for the years 1973 to 2002 are: Russia supplied 57% of Saddam’s arms imports, France 13%, China 12%, the US about 1%, the UK less than 1%, with Brazil selling more than the US ands UK combined. And guess which countries opposed the second resolution? Don’t let the torture and killing of Iraqi innocents get in the way of some good arms deals. Their faces of anguish are not on the BBC or CNN. All those Ali’s are long since dead and buried. And what are we to do with the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay? Some of those men were involved in terror, brutalization in Afghanistan, and are members of Al Qaida, an organization bent on killing and destroying. Some of those people have knowledge which will help disrupt that organization and thus help prevent the perpetration of further terror atrocities against civilians, some of whom walk the streets of London. It is equally clear that many such people will not freely divulge any information they have. Are the US authorities simply to send such people on their way? Some pressure is to be allowed, though we can debate how much. Many of those taken to Guantanamo Bay have already returned to their families (I have not heard of any having died there), which is more than can be said for more than 1,000,000 Iraqis and Iranians who died because of Saddam. Dr Summerfield quoted article 5 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights concerning torture. Saddam consistently tortured for decades. What did the UN do about it? Effectively nothing. Thanks to UK and US intervention, opposed by Russia, France and Germany, Saddam is no longer torturing the Iraqis. Yours faithfully
[1] AH Cordesman 1998, Center for Strategic and International Studies. Competing interests: None declared |
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Mark Struthers, GP Bedfordshire UK
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I must admit I had never considered there might be two sides to the argument on torture. Thank you Dr Carey. I applaud your wish to bring a sense of balance and fair play to the international game. There is clearly an injustice when Saddam can get away with torture and killing for decades and there is such a fuss when Americans knock around a few battlefield detainees in Afghanistan. It simply isn't playing cricket – whoops, sorry - it isn't playing ball. Competing interests: None declared |
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Babar B Chaudhri, SPR in Cardiothoracic Surgery Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Glasgow, G12 0NU
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Derek Summerfield has written most eloquently about the blatant abuses of human rghts that seem to be slowly emerging from 'Camp X-ray'. Some of these detainees may well have not had any role in Al-Quaeda, the Taliban regime or in terrorist activities, and yet have been subjected to what can only be defined as torture. These individuals are unlikely to able to express their innocence effectively enough to the investigating American authorities . They will be treated as subhuman. They are also unlikely to be compensated at all for their suffering if they were to be vindicated. It is argued that this behaviour is perfectly justified so that subsequent terrorism can be averted, and yet American and British assurances about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction have proved totally incorrect. We must be sceptical of the reasons used to justify this state sponsored torture and we must discuss this openly. This activity is creating a substrate for simmering resentment and further possible terrorist activity. The United States of America declares itself with boring regularity to be the defender of freedom and democracy, yet it has sunken to the very lowest form of dictatorship and personal repression. Competing interests: None declared |
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Richard G Fiddian-Green, None None
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If the free world makes a hero of terrorists and rebrands them as freedom-fighters and then honours them with awards including the prestigious Nobel peace prize, is it all surprising that the Gadafis, Saddams and Assads expect the same treatment? Is it not saying that the means justify the ends even when they include using women and children as shields, torture, and destroying antiquities to undermine the potential for developing a tourist industry? The most pressing issue facing the world today is the threat of mass human extinction from overpopulation and environmental degradation. It is not poverty. If the objective is for all peoples to survive and thrive and for individuals to have complete freedom there is no place for either tyrants or terrorists. The first step in addressing poverty and its associated disease burden must be the establishment of credible and sustainable law and order. Africas has failed dismally because of its failure to have done so. The second step is to educate everyone and to give them access to treatments for acute illnesses. The third step is to let free market forces prevail for the young and old alike be they male or female black, yellow or white. Terrorism is all forms must be eliminated if law and order are to prevail. The Iraq war has been a decisive step in the right direction. Decapitation operations are appropriate against any government that is excessively repressive and/or is responsible for the funding and training of terrorists and providing them safe havens should they need it. 1. There are no longer any rules of engagement Richard G Fiddian-Green bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7390/667/a#30672, 23 Mar 2003 2. Against an anti-war march Richard G Fiddian-Green bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7382/220#29191, 27 Jan 2003 3. Against academic and sporting boycotts and sanctions Richard G Fiddian-Green bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7379/0/g#28543, 8 Jan 200 4. The priority should be to preserve humanity Richard G Fiddian-Green bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7387/495#30057, 28 Feb 2003 5. Killing the geese that lay the golden eggs Richard G Fiddian-Green bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7387/495#30079, 1 Mar 2003 Competing interests: None declared |
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Anne Savage, retired na
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I have only recently seen Derek Summerfield's article and, once again, must congratulate him for writing so clearly. Rumours concerning the use of torture by the US authorities had reached me but I hadn't realised how well established it was. I do, however, remember that the British government was shamed into relinquishing lesser forms of torture as then practiced in N Ireland, thoiugh the indesciminate terrorism practiced by the IRA and supported by US citizens still seems worse, even than 9?11. We were in Cuba earlier in the year and Guantanamo Bay lurked in the background of that beautiful island. No Cubans now are allowed to work there, though they did in the past. Cuba is a dictatorship; political opponants are imprisoned and refugees repeatedly try to leave. But there is subsidised food for the poor, an excellent, free health and education service, a society so secure that young girls can safely hitch lifts home and a low incidence of petty crime. None of this can be said of the US or any of the countries it has 'liberated'. Indeed, I heard that Haitians longed for the days of Papa Doc. Before we decide we want to dictate the conduct of other governments we should stop and think what the result of intervention might be. It is so easy to destroy and so difficult to build, but $80 billion dollars might have helped. Competing interests: None declared |
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Tom Marshall, Lecturer in Public Health Birmingham University, B15 2TT
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William Carey advances arguments in favour of torture. I beg to differ. However many US and Israeli citizens will be insulted by his assumption that opposition to torture is equivalent to opposition to the USA or Israel. Competing interests: None declared |
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Kim A. James, retired Psi International ltd, Northants NN29 7 SL
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I am appalled at the fact that people who would be expected to be humanitarian can even countenance the idea of torture being inflicted on another human; no matter what the crime. To advocate torture is to the equivalent of being a terrorist since torture is terror. Such things make me ashamed of being British these days. Competing interests: None declared |
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Siroos Mirzaei, Vienna Wilhelminenspital, Montleartstr. 37, 1171 Vienna, Austria, Peter Knoll
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Western democracy with its high standard of morals is already history, in this context it has also to be seen the wide acceptance of torture to fight terrorism. Actually, it can be divided into a consumer society and on the other site the cartels supported by political parties. The southern countries have to accept the law of jungle as the US followed by European countries are the stronger military and economic nations. The South has to open his markets with their mineral resources to the North. As a minimum countermove the North has to ensure the basic medical resources and education to the population in these countries, as a indispensable step also for the regional stability. The lack of education is the best prerequisite for manipulating the youth with “black and white” policy – especially by religious leaders who act in a major number in their own “clan” interests - resulting in violence and “terrorism”. The prisons – in the North and in the South - must be accessible to human rights organisations for visiting at any time and in the case of evidence of violation of human rights further juridical steps against the responsible authority should be undertaken. For both steps of providing the people in developing countries with basic medical assistance and observation of human rights situation in prisons the medical profession can continue to play a major role as has done up to now by organisations such as amnesty international medical groups, MSF, physicians for human rights, etc. Competing interests: None declared |
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William Carey, Clinical Pharmacologist Hammersmith Medicines Research, Park Royal, London NW10 7NS, UK.
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Dr Marshall wrote: ‘William Carey advances arguments in favour of torture. I beg to differ. However many US and Israeli citizens will be insulted by his assumption that opposition to torture is equivalent to opposition to the USA or Israel.’ I made no such assumption. It is right and proper to discuss the rights and wrongs and role of torture in society. However, my objection to the piece by Dr Summerfield ‘Fighting "terrorism" with torture’ [1] was that it was not a balanced and objective discussion on the topic, but was yet another attack on the US and Israel, this time disguised as piece on torture. For example, the word terror has been put in inverted comments to imply that it has not occurred and is a fabrication by the US. Dr Summerfield needs to be reminded that the campaign in Afghanistan was launched as a result of the attack on the WTC, a clear example of terror, as were the attacks in Bali and Africa. If that attack had not occurred, there would be no prisoners in Guantanamo Bay related to Afghanistan. Israel is mentioned, then South American countries, and with the implication that the US was, in part, responsible. Iraq and Saddam are mentioned, but with the implication that the US is at fault. There is no mention of Syria, Iran, Zimbabwe, North Korea etc, none suited to Dr Summerfield’s arguments as the US cannot be easily implicated. In the latter cases and Iraq, torture is used to allow a ruling elite to retain power, the US is involved in trying to extract information from people, some of whom are responsible for inflicting terror. By all means, criticize the US and Israel on their treatment of prisoners, but if Dr Summerfield and the BMJ want to be taken seriously, they should also discuss the torture practised by Mugabe etc, and what they propose should be done about that. Yours faithfully William D H Carey [1] BMJ 2003; 326: 773-774 Competing interests: None declared |
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Detlef Degner, senior doctor Department of Psychiatry,University of Göttingen,Germany,D-73073 Göttingen
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Dear Sir, The function and involvement of Psychiatry in political systems is very complex and has many aspects. In Germany these problems are discussed intensively with high sensibility,because of the known history of Nazi-Germany. I think today other aspects must be considered.Terrorism is a form of war under new conditions.Fighting against terrorism is legal and necessary.There are special structures of terroristic organisations ,intelligence services and military organisations of US Government must use adequate methods.The statements and letters about psychiatric and psychopharmacological techniques are to simple and not correct.The possible involvement of Psychiatry should be considered very carefully,but a new stigma of Psychiatry,psychiatrists and psychopharmacology must be avoided. Competing interests: None declared |
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hazel m hawker, sho psychiatry lynfield mount hosp, bradford, uk
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Can i express my extreme horror at what i have read in David Summerfield's article. I am speechless that supposedly civilised, educated people can participate in such a manner. What happened to first do no harm? yours sincerely Competing interests: None declared |
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